Tang On Tang Violence

[Marco S]

I have four Tangs in my Red Sea Reefer 750 XXL. 1 Achilles. 1 Powder Blue, 1 Purple and 1 Hippo. They all went in at the same time and the only real aggression I have seen is between the Achilles and Purple, (of course my two most expensive fish ). It seems to be off and on and they never have a problem eating together so I assumed they would eventually settle down when one proved dominance in the tank.

This morning I woke up to a pretty beaten up Achilles. His fins are cut in many places and he has some cuts on his body and all over the top of his head. He seemed pretty stressed and was swimming sideways and in circles and I was very worried. I have watched them over the last couple of hours and the Purple is definitely showing his dominance, but they have not gotten into it since. The Achilles was hiding for a while, but is now coming out a bit more.

What should I do? Should I separate them or just watch them now? If I take one out, which should it be? Is there anything I can dose to help the Achilles heal? I do not have any coral in this tank yet. I was planning on putting the first batch of coral from QT in this weekend, but I can hold off as the coral QT is doing great and I am in no hurry to move them just yet.

Any helpful advise is greatly appreciated!

 

[Marco S]

The Achilles looks like it is dying. He is laying on his side in between two rocks and breathing heavy every once in a while he will dart out and then back in on his side.

Is there anything I can do???

 

[Marco S]

I took the Achilles out and put him in the sump because the other Tangs were starting to pick on him also. I guess Tangs like kicking a fish when it's down. He is swimming around a bit, so I guess I can leave him there for now, but any advice for long term and for getting him healed up would be great!

The main thing I am worried about now is getting him better and then the same thing happening when I put him back. I really do not want to get rid of the Purple Tang, but if he is going to be a bully I just don't know how long before he starts picking on the other Tangs.

 

[Brian1f1]

How long have they been in the tank? How big are they? Are you sure it was the purple? Two acanthurus fangs in a tank that size is generally a bad idea.

 

[Brian1f1]

If the tank is cycled your best bet is to remove the aggressor. Achilles is very sensitive, needs tons of space, and gets diseased at the drop of the hat. I’d likely pull the purple and maybe the powder blue too unless your 100% sure it isn’t warring with it too.

 

[Marco S]

How long have they been in the tank? How big are they? Are you sure it was the purple? Two acanthurus fangs in a tank that size is generally a bad idea.

They have been in the same tank for about three months now and both are around 6 ", but the Purple is much fatter. It is definitely the Purple Tang. I have seen them go at it several times. The PBT is only aggressive towards the Blue Hippo for some reason and they have never actually hurt each other, just a bit of chasing and tail slapping here and there.

 

[Marco S]

I have a 45 gallon tank I can use to heal up the Achilles for now, but what happens when I put him back in? Would I be better off just finding a new home for him or should I try it again? I am not getting rid of the Purple BTW. I will get rid of every fish in the tank before I get rid of him.

 

[Brian1f1]

I have a 45 gallon tank I can use to heaup the Achilles for now, but what happens when I put him back in? Would I be better off just finding a new home for him or should I try it again? I am not getting rid of the Purple BTW. I will get rid of every fish in the tank before I get rid of him.

Yeah, you’re not really listening to anything I’m saying. Last time, bc I’m tired and my rug rats are losing their marbles. Purple out. Achilles stays in. Purple is healthy, purple can handle a small tank for awhile. Achilles is not healthy, and the species can’t handle small tanks well. Don’t move it. Move the purple. Purple is a terror. Aggressor needs out if you want any chance at a reintroduction, needs to be the aggressor that’s displaced and reintroduced. Remove purple ASAP. Let Achilles heal and establish territory. Move all the rocks around. Get an acclimation box. Purple into acclimation box after several weeks. Roll the dice. Tanks too small for both, probably. It didn’t help that you bought or got such big specimens, much easier to combine tangs when juvenile.

Once again, remove purple. Remove it tonight. Achilles will die if you don’t. Good chance Achilles dies if you move it to 45. Good chance it dies if you leave purple with it. Get it out, mix the rocks up after leaving it be for a few weeks. Leave it be a few more weeks, then try with acclimation box. If doesn’t work and hell bent on purple get a baby or try to rehome Achilles.

 

[Brian1f1]

Which other tang was getting on Achilles? The powder? I’d probably rehome the powder, and follow the rest of my advise to keep the rest. The hippo shouldn’t be a real issue.

 

[Marco S]

Which other tang was getting on Achilles? The powder? I’d probably rehome the powder, and follow the rest of my advise to keep the rest. The hippo shouldn’t be a real issue.

The Hippo and my FoxFace were picking on him. The PBT has never showed any aggression whatsoever towards the Achilles. He was in the 45 gallon QT with the Purple for a couple months and the Purple started picking on him right before I moved then all into my DT. I got all my Tangs around 4" because I had two baby Tangs die on me during QT and I was told that bigger Tangs are more hardy. They are around 4 1/2" to 5", (not 6") now. I have had them all for about 6 months waiting for all of them to go through QT so I could put them all in together.

I realize the tank is not big enough for all the Tangs when they are full grown, but The plan was to get a 300 or 400 gallon tank in two years that will be FOWLR and I would move over my Hippo and Achilles at that time. I may need to speed that up though at the rate these fish are growing.

Either way, is there anything I can do for the Achilles before I put him back in the DT and grab the Purple Tang? Any medication I can dip him in to help heal his wounds?

 

[Brian1f1]

The Hippo and my FoxFace were picking on him. The PBT has never showed any aggression whatsoever towards the Achilles. He was in the 45 gallon QT with the Purple for a couple months and the Purple started picking on him right before I moved then all into my DT. I got all my Tangs around 4" because I had two baby Tangs die on me during QT and I was told that bigger Tangs are more hardy. They are around 4 1/2" to 5", (not 6") now. I have had them all for about 6 months waiting for all of them to go through QT so I could put them all in together.

I realize the tank is not big enough for all the Tangs when they are full grown, but The plan was to get a 300 or 400 gallon tank in two years that will be FOWLR and I would move over my Hippo and Achilles at that time. I may need to speed that up though at the rate these fish are growing.

Either way, is there anything I can do for the Achilles before I put him back in the DT and grab the Purple Tang? Any medication I can dip him in to help heal his wounds?

Understand why you bought bigger. Problem is at that size they are already territorial as heck. Tiny is often not good, but 1.5 to 2.5 inches is often a sweetspot imo.

I wouldn’t dip him. Don’t stress him. Get him back into a bigger space pronto. Leave the lights out for the day. I’d just make him comfortable. Should Heal fast. If you see signs of infection post and we will advise. Post a pic of him and how he currently looks if you can.

 

[Marco S]

I can't get a good pic to save my life, but here is a video. Please forgive all the stuff floating around, I just cleaned off the glass and blew off the rocks getting ready for a water change. That's also why all my fish are hiding.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

@4FordFamily has a good article on tang aggression that would be worth checking out

 

[4FordFamily]

@4FordFamily has a good article on tang aggression that would be worth checking out

Ich and Acanthurus tangs - Years of experience and ich management

Alright folks I wanted to share some pretty shameful realities about my past and dealing with Acanthurus tangs. To anyone that doesn't know, common Acanthurus tangs include Powder Blue, Powder Brown, Goldrim/white cheek, Achilles, Sohal, Clown...

www.reef2reef.com

I would also remove the aggressor, here. The largest tangs should generally be the LEAST aggressive species/individuals wherever possible. A large, aggressive tank-boss tang is going to be a tough force.

A small achilles is very fragile. With all fish (but especially tangs) -- a weak tang is going to be a free-for-all for others to beat on. They ultimately compete for food and are quite territorial so comparatively they'll be first to take the opportunity to finish off a weak tang. Once they reach this state, removal is best. I would nurse the achilles in the sump or another tank even if you remove the PT (which again, I would do). PT are best if raised from little fellas IME.

Sorry you're having the trouble, perhaps my article above will provide some more insight for you. Good luck

 

[Marco S]

Ich and Acanthurus tangs - Years of experience and ich management

Alright folks I wanted to share some pretty shameful realities about my past and dealing with Acanthurus tangs. To anyone that doesn't know, common Acanthurus tangs include Powder Blue, Powder Brown, Goldrim/white cheek, Achilles, Sohal, Clown...

www.reef2reef.com

I would also remove the aggressor, here. The largest tangs should generally be the LEAST aggressive species/individuals wherever possible. A large, aggressive tank-boss tang is going to be a tough force.

A small achilles is very fragile. With all fish (but especially tangs) -- a weak tang is going to be a free-for-all for others to beat on. They ultimately compete for food and are quite territorial so comparatively they'll be first to take the opportunity to finish off a weak tang. Once they reach this state, removal is best. I would nurse the achilles in the sump or another tank even if you remove the PT (which again, I would do). PT are best if raised from little fellas IME.

Sorry you're having the trouble, perhaps my article above will provide some more insight for you. Good luck

Great article, thank you for sharing your experience. I did, (and will continue to) QT everything wet that went into my tank so Ich is not a concern, but it is good to know that Achanthurus Tangs have such a hard time with Ich since I have two of them. If I ever do see any signs in the future I will definitely do the right thing and hospitalize and treat them accordingly.

As far as the Achilles I have goes, I only have a 45 gallon available at the moment. Should I put him in there for now to heal or is that too small? And when he is healed should I attempt to re introduce him or give up and trade him in? I already asked my LFS and they are willing to give me a decent trade, but he needs to be presentable to sell so I would need to nurse him back to good health. I am willing to do whatever you recommend because I do not want to kill any of my Tangs and would rather give up the Achilles than risk killing him. The only thing I will not do is get rid of the Purple Tang. He is my absolute favorite fish I have ever owned. He has not shown any aggression to any other fish, (besides the Achilles) since he has been in the main tank. He did show some aggression towards the PBT while they were in QT together, but they were in a 45 gallon together for over 2 months and he never actually hurt him so I was a bit surprised that he is showing such aggression with my Achilles.

Please let me know what you would recommend as far as the Achilles goes and I will take your advice.

 

[4FordFamily]

Great article, thank you for sharing your experience. I did, (and will continue to) QT everything wet that went into my tank so Ich is not a concern, but it is good to know that Achanthurus Tangs have such a hard time with Ich since I have two of them. If I ever do see any signs in the future I will definitely do the right thing and hospitalize and treat them accordingly.

As far as the Achilles I have goes, I only have a 45 gallon available at the moment. Should I put him in there for now to heal or is that too small? And when he is healed should I attempt to re introduce him or give up and trade him in? I already asked my LFS and they are willing to give me a decent trade, but he needs to be presentable to sell so I would need to nurse him back to good health. I am willing to do whatever you recommend because I do not want to kill any of my Tangs and would rather give up the Achilles than risk killing him. The only thing I will not do is get rid of the Purple Tang. He is my absolute favorite fish I have ever owned. He has not shown any aggression to any other fish, (besides the Achilles) since he has been in the main tank. He did show some aggression towards the PBT while they were in QT together, but they were in a 45 gallon together for over 2 months and he never actually hurt him so I was a bit surprised that he is showing such aggression with my Achilles.

Please let me know what you would recommend as far as the Achilles goes and I will take your advice.

WHOOPS I shared the wrong Article! I am so sorry! Here is the correct one!

Tang Aggression - Understanding and Combating

Tangs tang aggression mean nasty evil injured stab surgeonfish killing killed kill beat hide hiding why help remove sump new addition

www.reef2reef.com

 

[4FordFamily]

I recommend re-homing the PT and getting another one, smaller.

 

[Marco S]

WHOOPS I shared the wrong Article! I am so sorry! Here is the correct one!

Tang Aggression - Understanding and Combating

Tangs tang aggression mean nasty evil injured stab surgeonfish killing killed kill beat hide hiding why help remove sump new addition

www.reef2reef.com

Another great article! I am actually surprised that the PBT is number 1 on your list as I have not seen any aggression from mine at all, (knocking on wood here). I will say that he did not eat for a while in QT and was very skinny and I did not think he would make it so he probably wasn't strong enough to be aggressive for a while. Once he did finally start eating and I got him fat and healthy he continued to show no signs of aggression and has been a model citizen in QT and in my DT. He did get a bit of bullying by my PT in QT so I hope he does not hold that grudge once he outgrows the PT.

Also, great pics! I especially love the 2 Achilles, PBT, Goldrim and Purple in the same tank, (don't worry...I won't be trying that any time soon).

I recommend re-homing the PT and getting another one, smaller.

So, that is the one thing I am not willing to do. I would rather have the PT be the only fish in the tank then get rid of him. I will however separate the Achilles and get him back to good health so I can trade him in. I will wait until I get a much bigger tank to get another Achilles and only have him and the Hippo in it with no other Tangs, (well possible a Sohal or Naso depending on the size of the tank).

Thank you for sharing your articles and your advice!!!

 

[4FordFamily]

Another great article! I am actually surprised that the PBT is number 1 on your list as I have not seen any aggression from mine at all, (knocking on wood here). I will say that he did not eat for a while in QT and was very skinny and I did not think he would make it so he probably wasn't strong enough to be aggressive for a while. Once he did finally start eating and I got him fat and healthy he continued to show no signs of aggression and has been a model citizen in QT and in my DT. He did get a bit of bullying by my PT in QT so I hope he does not hold that grudge once he outgrows the PT.

Also, great pics! I especially love the 2 Achilles, PBT, Goldrim and Purple in the same tank, (don't worry...I won't be trying that any time soon).



So, that is the one thing I am not willing to do. I would rather have the PT be the only fish in the tank then get rid of him. I will however separate the Achilles and get him back to good health so I can trade him in. I will wait until I get a much bigger tank to get another Achilles and only have him and the Hippo in it with no other Tangs, (well possible a Sohal or Naso depending on the size of the tank).

Thank you for sharing your articles and your advice!!!

Glad to help and thank you!

Some PBT can be model citizens I’ve had a couple over the years that were mild— large variance of temperament. They get nastier as they grow and one of those two did eventually get nastier around 5 inches.

 

[Brian1f1]

Your PBT appears to be acting aggressively/posturing/intimidating the archilles in your vid.