Tank Cycle w/ Dr. Tim's
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sfin52
So many pedestrians so little time
From @taricha Hope that helps"What is the End Game?" (from convo with @mcarroll)
Haven't really talked about it much here because the thread is mostly about trying to get people past the outbreak phase.
If you've reduced dinos to invisible and are now growing lots of algae that you didn't really want, what happens next?
How much algae should we be growing? This paper lays out the large daily algae production in a reef,
Notice that in a reef that looks coral dominated and algae free, algae production is higher than coral.
Algae generally have Carbon as ~25% of dry weight, so this 3 g of C is 12 g total dry weight per square meter. algae can be anywhere from 70-90%+ water, so this 12g dry weight would be ballpark 50 or 60 grams a day fresh weight of algae in 1 square meter (or two 55gal tanks.)
So if your 55gallon tank grew 30 grams of algae a day every day, would you freak out? Probably so!
But that's what real reefs do.
This is 30 grams of algae material (less actually - I couldn't get it fully dry). Reefs grow this on average every day in the surface area of a 55g tank. And yet on a reef, you never notice it...
The difference, I would argue is grazers. Real healthy reefs have a grazer army scaled to the job. When they don't for some reason, disaster occurs. (See how urchin disease wrecked caribbean reefs)
I submit that if you know all the algae grazers in your tank by name, you ain't got enough. Nor is going out and buying a few tangs going to create balance either. A sensible approach may be to find a heavy lifter or two and then fill the gaps with algae grazers that can reproduce in a reef tank and let their population scale up to the the tank's new healthy level of algae production, let these invisible armies keep your algae in check.
(admittedly, if your livestock is voracious invert predators, this could be a big challenge.)
You'll probably also want to grow some of that algae outside the display through a fuge or scrubber or similar, but if your scrubber is so effective that with minimal grazing, there's no noticeable algae production in the display, then that sounds like you've still got the same problem.
Above all we can't view algae growth as something to be avoided. That way lies madness.
or just run a sterile frag tank and nuke it every few weeks/months when something you don't like gets a foothold.
Those are the only sustainable end games I can see.
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I mean the noticeable hard-working herbivores you'd buy. Like an herbivorous fish, urchin, sea hare, large snail, emeralds (for some kinds of algae) etc. Hermits don't make the list.
"Heavy lifters" in my tank are: Algae Blenny, Urchin, 2 big Turbos, and a handful of emeralds (until my valonia is gone). Beware things labeled "clean-up-crew" that aren't really strict herbivores.
The bit players are the nameless unnumbered hordes of tiny amphipods, isopods, copepods, snails, and other unnoticed inverts that can reproduce in the tank and scale their population up to the size of the algae growth. I highly value any herbivore capable of reproducing in the tank for that reason.
Hi everyone just started to cycle my new tank and this thread was really helpful. 3 days ago I added ammonia chloride to get the tank up to 2 and added a whole bottle of one & only bacteria. I tested again today looks like ammonia is decreased to <.5 Should I add more ammonia to bring it back up to 2? This is my first post on the forum hoping to learn as much as I can.
my tank is a Red Sea 350
Thanks,
pete
my tank is a Red Sea 350
Thanks,
pete
furcifer208
Active Member
Here's how mine is cycling right now. Wait until nitrites get to zero before you add more. If nitrites get above 5ppm in can kill off the bacteria. And you'll have to start all over. There is a misconception that you have to keep the bacteria fed. It's not true. Once you've grown them they will survive for up to a year but it's easy to kill them with too much ammonia. Once ammonia and nitrites drop to zero in 24 hours you are done.
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@MnFish1 Can you elaborate? Everyone I've spoken too at the LFS and online has mentioned cycling this way, i'm all ears for different ways. I heard of the dead shrimp, and adding fish, but I think the fish would die no?
If the fish don't die they will be crippled for life. Gill and organ damage from ammonia. Also skin damage. This will make them more prone to get disease. Your tank needs to be able to process the fish waste before it can harm the fish. The bacteria do this when they have multiplied over time. It is the same thing as if you have a swimming pool and its turning a bit green. You need to shock it. So you add extra muriatic acid and chlorine while people are in the pool. Ouch..... Can you say lawsuit?
Best way is to use bacteria and ammonia. Ammonia can be a table shrimp, fish food or just liquid ammonia. Bacteria can be in a bottle or from live rock. Bacteria can even be in the air, but it will take months before they multiply enough to process ammonia.
furcifer208
Active Member
I was following @Brew12's guide: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/cycling-an-aquarium.306554/
I did a fishless cycle mostly out of curiosity before I added fish but also following recommendations from the guide and LFS. I have two clownfish in there now. They seem to be doing fine. Dr. Tim's was $5 on Amazon and I had the Ammonium Chloride solution from a previous cycle.
I did a fishless cycle mostly out of curiosity before I added fish but also following recommendations from the guide and LFS. I have two clownfish in there now. They seem to be doing fine. Dr. Tim's was $5 on Amazon and I had the Ammonium Chloride solution from a previous cycle.
furcifer208
Active Member
I think @Dr. Reef is planning an experiment to see if the Ammonia and Nitrite spike with the Dr. Tim's + add fish right way method over here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-in-a-bottle-myth-or-fact.403226/
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There are multiple products out there Stability, Dr. Tim's, and many others. I have never ever used ammonia to cycle a tank. In fact since using bacteria (In a bottle) I have never tested ammonia, or nitrite - because when I do they are always zero. What I do is I use stability. I start a filter, add the recommended dose of bacteria. The next day I add the fish, and each day I follow the recommendations on the bottle - have never lost a fish. (and contrary to the post below, its the same procedure I follow when I bring my Koi in each winter for the last 15 years) - so fish are not crippled for life.
Ammonia can also be fish urine. The key point is there needs to be enough bacteria present to break down how ever much ammonia is produced (whether its added by hand or whether its added by fish or decay). There is no magic here. Its basic microbiology.
BTW - you are incredibly incorrect in most of what you say (I wont even get into the swimming pool). Here is how it works. Bacteria grow to a level at which there is a steady state between 'food' and 'bacteria number'. If the food level (ammonia) drops, the number of bacteria also drop. So - how do you calculate the amount of ammonia to use for X number of fish? The answer you can't. This below is from an article:
Adding Bacteria
After all the chlorine has been safely neutralized, nitrifying bacteria should be added to rid the aquarium of ammonia. Depending on the aquarium pH, 3-4 days may be advisable before adding your fish in order to minimize stress. If the water supply does not contain chloramines, and there is no ammonia, nitrifying bacteria should be added at the same time as the fish.
Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter species of bacteria belong to the family NITROBACTERACEAE - the true nitrifiers. Five genera are generally accepted as ammonia-oxidizers and four genera as nitrite-oxidizers. Of these, Nitrosomonas (ammonia-oxidizers) and Nitrobacter (nitrite-oxidizers) are the most important. Marine species are different from those that prefer fresh water, and yet, are very closely related. Each species has a limited optimum range for survival. They are the most efficient, and most important, group of nitrifying bacteria and are ubiquitous (world-wide) in their distribution.
Care should be taken to research companies that provide true strains of nitrifying bacteria. Often "bacteria" found in the market place are not true autotrophic nitrifying bacteria and are instead heterotrophic sludge (organic) consuming bacteria. Heterotrophic bacteria are not nitrifying bacteria and the use of heterotrophic bacteria will provide little to no benefit at establishing a sound or "cycled" ammonia and nitrite consuming biological filter. A list of products claiming to contain true nitrifying bacteria are as follows:
Colony Professional Grade Nitrifying Bacteria Marine Aquarium Supplement (Colony)
Colony Professional Grade Nitrifying Bacteria Freshwater Aquarium Supplement (Colony)
ATM (Acrylic Tank Manufacturing), Las Vegas, NV 89118
ATM (Acrylic Tank Manufacturing) UK, Norwich NR10 3SS - Pro Application
ProLine Nitrifying Bacteria, Freshwater (ProLine)
ProLine Nitrifying Bacteria, Saltwater (ProLine)
Pentair Aquatic Eco-Systems, Inc., Apopka, FL 32703
Aquatic Solutions Nitrifying Bacteria, Freshwater (Aquatic Solutions)
Aquatic Solutions Nitrifying Bacteria, Saltwater (Aquatic Solutions)
Aquatic Solutions, LLC, Des Moines, Iowa 50310
One & Only Nitrifying Bacteria for Freshwater Aquaria (One & Only)
One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria for Reef, Nano and Seahorse Aquaria (One & Only)
DrTim's Aquatics, LLC, Moorpark, CA 93021
Fritz Zyme #7 – TurboStart (Freshwater)
Fritz Zyme #9 – TurboStart (Saltwater)
Fritz Industries - Fritz Pet Products, Dallas, TX 75149
Yes I prob over stated the severity of the issue to make a point. Sometimes my soap box gets in front of me. Swimming pool came to mind as I had to add chlorine today because of a big party on the 4th. Not that there was any extra ammonia and other stuff in the pool ......
Organs are not damaged. The process most likely works like this: Elevated NH4+ displaces K+ and depolarizes neurons, causing activation of NMDA type glutamate receptor, which leads to an influx of excessive Ca2+ and subsequent cell death in the central nervous system. Some fish are better at handling the ammonia spike as a natural response to feeding. Most tests are run on healthy, non stressed fish that are eating. As to what "in order to minimize stress" means in the above article I dont know. "So - how do you calculate the amount of ammonia to use for X number of fish". We just guess by using levels of ammonia conversion over a period of time. So what level of ammonia is safe really depends on multiple factors and how you define safe.
Organs are not damaged. The process most likely works like this: Elevated NH4+ displaces K+ and depolarizes neurons, causing activation of NMDA type glutamate receptor, which leads to an influx of excessive Ca2+ and subsequent cell death in the central nervous system. Some fish are better at handling the ammonia spike as a natural response to feeding. Most tests are run on healthy, non stressed fish that are eating. As to what "in order to minimize stress" means in the above article I dont know. "So - how do you calculate the amount of ammonia to use for X number of fish". We just guess by using levels of ammonia conversion over a period of time. So what level of ammonia is safe really depends on multiple factors and how you define safe.
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And that is the benefit (IMHO) of using bacteria and fish together. The amount of bacteria added is far more than what is necessary for even a large bio load of fish. Thus, you can't undershoot. I may be the exception to the rule - but I've never had a problem when using these products and adding fish/coral/rock.
In reality, every time you add a new fish/coral/rock - there is a risk of a cycle occurring as there is now waste product (and more food, etc etc) present until bacteria build up to process the waste produced by the new arrival.
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