Tank Transfer Method

[MnFish1]

I have a longnose butterfly that looks like has ich. But he also has some pimple looking spots on his side. Opinion seems to be an issue with copper. I only got him a few days ago and he is a joy! He perks up when food is presented but I have not witness him eating.

I did a freshwater dip and that's when the ich became apparent. I was wondering if TTM would work to cure the ich and in every other transfer I can medicate the pimple spots with Kanaplex or Metro? I am worried about treating him with copper if that is the general consensus of the pimple spots. But I also know I cant mix metro or kanaplex with copper so I wouldnt be able to treat it anyways.

THAT is interesting - I have never seen that type of lesion - were they there when you bought/got him? It could be some kind of intestinal parasite/intestinal obstruction. How big is the fish - are the lesions visible from both sides? are they getting better/worse?

I would strongly suggest that you start a new thread with this post. I think you need to be treating the Cryptocaryon sooner than later. I might consider chloroquine. Of course copper is also an excellent option @vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal
@nereefpat @fishguy242

 

[elchopo]

THAT is interesting - I have never seen that type of lesion - were they there when you bought/got him? It could be some kind of intestinal parasite/intestinal obstruction. How big is the fish - are the lesions visible from both sides? are they getting better/worse?

I would strongly suggest that you start a new thread with this post. I think you need to be treating the Cryptocaryon sooner than later. I might consider chloroquine. Of course copper is also an excellent option @vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal

Vetteguy has been helping me and has gotten me to this point! I figured I'd ask here since this seems to be a situation where it could benefit the fish from having the least amount of chemicals added as possible. I'd hate to add copper and then find out that was the original issue and it gets worse. I'd imagine the copper cant fix that issue no matter what. The marks are only on one side. He doesnt seem to be favoring it which I am not sure how much fish would do that anyways.

Yeah, they really look like gigantic whiteheads. I have never seen anything like it myself. I didnt notice when I bought the fish but did when I got home. They have seem to have gotten worse to a degree. Seems to have spread a little bit but at the same time looks better? Hard to describe. Vetteguy suggested the seachem products before he determined it also had ich.

Here is the thread with all the information:

HELP! Two raised bumps on new longnose butterfly fish

I have these Salifert test kits. What should I monitor? Do I also need to bump the temperature to 80 degrees? It's around 73 now. I have two powerheads should I point one up to the surface? I placed an order for Coppersafe and it will be here Wednesday. Do I still need to treat with the...

www.reef2reef.com

I just want to do the safest thing for him. I will get whatever I need.

 

[MnFish1]

Vetteguy has been helping me and has gotten me to this point! I figured I'd ask here since this seems to be a situation where it could benefit the fish from having the least amount of chemicals added as possible. I'd hate to add copper and then find out that was the original issue and it gets worse. I'd imagine the copper cant fix that issue no matter what. The marks are only on one side. He doesnt seem to be favoring it which I am not sure how much fish would do that anyways.

Yeah, they really look like gigantic whiteheads. I have never seen anything like it myself. I didnt notice when I bought the fish but did when I got home. They have seem to have gotten worse to a degree. Seems to have spread a little bit but at the same time looks better? Hard to describe. Vetteguy suggested the seachem products before he determined it also had ich.

Here is the thread with all the information:

HELP! Two raised bumps on new longnose butterfly fish

I have these Salifert test kits. What should I monitor? Do I also need to bump the temperature to 80 degrees? It's around 73 now. I have two powerheads should I point one up to the surface? I placed an order for Coppersafe and it will be here Wednesday. Do I still need to treat with the...

www.reef2reef.com

I just want to do the safest thing for him. I will get whatever I need.

I will reply to you in the other thread!

 

[vetteguy53081]

While TYM has been used for a few years, it requires moving fish every day and a half in which some either give up or grow impatient
I still prefer to medicate and focus on one system and monitor progress
To me- TTM adds stress in the process but it can work if an individual follows it precisely

 

[Jrsyhomegrown87]

Tank Transfer Method


What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) only.

How To Treat – Tank transfer (TTM) is my favorite method for clearing a fish of Marine Ich, but the prevalence (and similarities) of Marine Velvet Disease can make TTM a risky gamble nowadays. To properly execute TTM you need two tanks (or buckets), with dedicated equipment for each tank (not to be shared between the two). I personally use 2 of the 10 gallon tanks to do TTM, each with its own heater, thermometer, air stone, airline tubing and PVC elbows for hiding places. This is how TTM is implemented:

Day 1 – Fish is placed in initial QT.

Day 4 – Roughly 72 hours later transfer the fish to new tank. The time of day you do the transfer is unimportant, but never exceed 72 hours from the last transfer. The temperature and SG of the new tank should match the old one perfectly, so you can just catch & release (no acclimation). Transfer as little water as possible with the fish.

Day 7 – Repeat.

Day 10 – Repeat.

Day 13 – Repeat and done (fish should now be ich free).

After transferring, immediately sanitize the “old tank” and all equipment using bleach or vinegar. Rinse well. Let air dry thoroughly before next use. The air drying is the sterilization process when using vinegar, or detoxification process when using bleach.

Simply put, this process works because you are literally outrunning the parasite’s known life cycle. If a fish is infected with ich, trophonts will leave the fish at some point during the TTM process, and the encysted stage doesn’t have enough time to release theronts (i.e. free swimmers that re-infect the fish) before the fish exits the tank. Ammonia isn’t much of a concern with TTM, because every 3 days the fish is placed in a new tank with new water; or you always have the option of using ammonia reducers, such as Amquel or Prime, in conjunction with TTM since there is no risk of negative interaction because no medications are present. However, you do have the option of dosing Praziquantel (if you need to deworm) at the tail end of transfers 2 & 4 (or 1 & 3). The fish only needs 24 hours of exposure time to Praziquantel, so dose 24 hours before you are set to make the next transfer. A second round of Praziquantel is required 5-7 days after the first, but again dose the medication 24 hours before you are set to transfer the fish out. Just remember if you do this that you can’t use any ammonia reducers while Prazi is present in the water.

One of the cons to tank transfer is the amount/cost of saltwater needed to do it. For example, using my 2-10 gallons I go through 50 gallons of saltwater before the TTM process is complete. However, a thrifty hobbyist can use water stored from a recent display tank water change to implement TTM. Obviously, this only works if you are 100% confident that your display tank is disease-free and don’t siphon anything off the bottom. The other problem with TTM is netting the fish every 3 days. That concern can be somewhat alleviated by using a plastic colander in lieu of a net to catch the fish (square ones work better than round ones):

Pros – Chemical free solution to Marine Ich, highly effective when performed properly, can be combined with deworming via Praziquantel.

Cons/Side Effects – Cost (if using all new saltwater), time/effort expended, probably somewhat stressful on the fish being caught every 3 days, does not treat other diseases such as Marine Velvet Disease, Brooklynella, Uronema, etc.

More detailed information on Tank Transfer Method: http://www.tanktransfermethod.com/node/1

Tank Transfer Method For Velvet

Below is a TTM schedule which will eliminate both Ich & velvet:

Day 1 - fish in tank
Day 2 - 1st transfer at 36 hours
Day 4 - 2nd transfer at 36 hours
Day 5 - 3rd transfer at 36 hours
Day 7 - 4th transfer at 36 hours
Day 10 - 5th transfer at 71 hours
Day 13 - 6th transfer at 71 hours

^^ No chemicals (such as H2O2) required.

Basis: Assuming worst case scenario, and velvet trophonts stop dropping off a fish immediately after going into a tank, you have around 48 hours until the tomonts begin releasing free swimmers (that reinfect the fish). So, a 36 hour transfer moves the fish away from the threat before this can happen. However, velvet trophonts can also remain on a fish for as long as 96 hours so that is why you have to do more than one transfer @ 36 hours.

The "standard" 72 hour transfer (or 71 hours for good measure) can resume only near the tail end, once the threat of velvet is gone and you are just concerned about the possibility of Ich (which can remain on the fish for a longer duration - 7 days).

The above TTM schedule was once just a theory of mine, but has now been successfully tested multiple times!

So I am dealing with a ich outbreak (I think its ich considering its been 6 days and no deaths occurred) Bought the tanks to do TTM with. Will be pulling all the fish tonight and placing in the tanks. Very informative post, hopefully I can get through this without many losses. Will update during the procedure...

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Is this viable minimum equipment for TTM?

Tupperware that’s it. sand just because it’s a coris wrasse and needs sand. I’ll probably bleach or use vinegar on sand too? I don’t need as much next time I just was worried about the guy because he was looking bad in the copper in the QT behind Tupperware.

I’m in California. It’s 80-95 degrees out every day, I have AC on in house to keep it right at 78. No thermometer because the tank behind it has one and they should be similar temp because heater is off on that tank and they’re right next to each other.

I figure the Tupperware is shallow so air is blowing across the top. Do I really need airstone setup? Just one coris wrasse and I might add a velvet damsel.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Personally I wouldn't be comfortable without an air stone. Calculate how many transfers you are planning on making, get enough of the 89-cent air stones, and a hunk of air tubing to cut some 2' lengths off of, and make it all disposable (i.e., change-out at each transfer). That's the simplest. Best wishes.

 

[Tired]

Seems way too small, and you NEED a lid. You're putting fish in a stressful environment, including a species prone to jumping. Try and get hiding places of some sort, maybe disposable cups or some PVC pipe.

You also need some sort of air movement. As JumboShrimp said, an airstone swapped out every time works, though remember to put the QT tank far away from your main tank to avoid any ich in the air.

Get a couple of buckets, put a small bowl of sand in the bucket when the wrasse is in there, and use new sand every time you transfer. Spread the old sand in the sun for a week or two to make it safe to use later.

 

[MnFish1]

Is this viable minimum equipment for TTM?

Tupperware that’s it. sand just because it’s a coris wrasse and needs sand. I’ll probably bleach or use vinegar on sand too? I don’t need as much next time I just was worried about the guy because he was looking bad in the copper in the QT behind Tupperware.

I’m in California. It’s 80-95 degrees out every day, I have AC on in house to keep it right at 78. No thermometer because the tank behind it has one and they should be similar temp because heater is off on that tank and they’re right next to each other.

I figure the Tupperware is shallow so air is blowing across the top. Do I really need airstone setup? Just one coris wrasse and I might add a velvet damsel.

Yes it's a minimum. I think you could cut back the sand by at least 50%. You need some kind of a mesh lid, and in order to do TTM correctly - you Can't re-use the sand each day. It would need to be sterilized. The sand being that deep is going to create anaerobic areas. Hope this helps

 

[Bitcoin Reefer]

Seems way too small, and you NEED a lid. You're putting fish in a stressful environment, including a species prone to jumping. Try and get hiding places of some sort, maybe disposable cups or some PVC pipe.

You also need some sort of air movement. As JumboShrimp said, an airstone swapped out every time works, though remember to put the QT tank far away from your main tank to avoid any ich in the air.

Get a couple of buckets, put a small bowl of sand in the bucket when the wrasse is in there, and use new sand every time you transfer. Spread the old sand in the sun for a week or two to make it safe to use later.

You were right. He jumped. Late reply. Mad at myself for not getting to Home Depot to get egg crate faster.

 

[1stMarineTankDude]

Tank Transfer Method


What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) only.

How To Treat – Tank transfer (TTM) is my favorite method for clearing a fish of Marine Ich, but the prevalence (and similarities) of Marine Velvet Disease can make TTM a risky gamble nowadays. To properly execute TTM you need two tanks (or buckets), with dedicated equipment for each tank (not to be shared between the two). I personally use 2 of the 10 gallon tanks to do TTM, each with its own heater, thermometer, air stone, airline tubing and PVC elbows for hiding places. This is how TTM is implemented:

Day 1 – Fish is placed in initial QT.

Day 4 – Roughly 72 hours later transfer the fish to new tank. The time of day you do the transfer is unimportant, but never exceed 72 hours from the last transfer. The temperature and SG of the new tank should match the old one perfectly, so you can just catch & release (no acclimation). Transfer as little water as possible with the fish.

Day 7 – Repeat.

Day 10 – Repeat.

Day 13 – Repeat and done (fish should now be ich free).

After transferring, immediately sanitize the “old tank” and all equipment using bleach or vinegar. Rinse well. Let air dry thoroughly before next use. The air drying is the sterilization process when using vinegar, or detoxification process when using bleach.

Simply put, this process works because you are literally outrunning the parasite’s known life cycle. If a fish is infected with ich, trophonts will leave the fish at some point during the TTM process, and the encysted stage doesn’t have enough time to release theronts (i.e. free swimmers that re-infect the fish) before the fish exits the tank. Ammonia isn’t much of a concern with TTM, because every 3 days the fish is placed in a new tank with new water; or you always have the option of using ammonia reducers, such as Amquel or Prime, in conjunction with TTM since there is no risk of negative interaction because no medications are present. However, you do have the option of dosing Praziquantel (if you need to deworm) at the tail end of transfers 2 & 4 (or 1 & 3). The fish only needs 24 hours of exposure time to Praziquantel, so dose 24 hours before you are set to make the next transfer. A second round of Praziquantel is required 5-7 days after the first, but again dose the medication 24 hours before you are set to transfer the fish out. Just remember if you do this that you can’t use any ammonia reducers while Prazi is present in the water.

One of the cons to tank transfer is the amount/cost of saltwater needed to do it. For example, using my 2-10 gallons I go through 50 gallons of saltwater before the TTM process is complete. However, a thrifty hobbyist can use water stored from a recent display tank water change to implement TTM. Obviously, this only works if you are 100% confident that your display tank is disease-free and don’t siphon anything off the bottom. The other problem with TTM is netting the fish every 3 days. That concern can be somewhat alleviated by using a plastic colander in lieu of a net to catch the fish (square ones work better than round ones):

Pros – Chemical free solution to Marine Ich, highly effective when performed properly, can be combined with deworming via Praziquantel.

Cons/Side Effects – Cost (if using all new saltwater), time/effort expended, probably somewhat stressful on the fish being caught every 3 days, does not treat other diseases such as Marine Velvet Disease, Brooklynella, Uronema, etc.

More detailed information on Tank Transfer Method: http://www.tanktransfermethod.com/node/1

Tank Transfer Method For Velvet

Below is a TTM schedule which will eliminate both Ich & velvet:

Day 1 - fish in tank
Day 2 - 1st transfer at 36 hours
Day 4 - 2nd transfer at 36 hours
Day 5 - 3rd transfer at 36 hours
Day 7 - 4th transfer at 36 hours
Day 10 - 5th transfer at 71 hours
Day 13 - 6th transfer at 71 hours

^^ No chemicals (such as H2O2) required.

Basis: Assuming worst case scenario, and velvet trophonts stop dropping off a fish immediately after going into a tank, you have around 48 hours until the tomonts begin releasing free swimmers (that reinfect the fish). So, a 36 hour transfer moves the fish away from the threat before this can happen. However, velvet trophonts can also remain on a fish for as long as 96 hours so that is why you have to do more than one transfer @ 36 hours.

The "standard" 72 hour transfer (or 71 hours for good measure) can resume only near the tail end, once the threat of velvet is gone and you are just concerned about the possibility of Ich (which can remain on the fish for a longer duration - 7 days).

The above TTM schedule was once just a theory of mine, but has now been successfully tested multiple times!

Noting the age of this post, do you still see and recommend the 2nd protocol to eliminate velvet as well? I think i prefer this method as I do not want to risk fish stress with chems and kill my new pets due to a poor measurement or other mistake i could easily make. However, i also want to remove as much opportunity for nature to kill them as well. Also, how do we validate Shrimp, crabs and snails? I have a new tank (my first) which is completely cycled and I will need to insert the cleaning crew as soon as my first fish go in. I plan to TTM two clowns and a Yellow Watchman Goby together in the next day! So my clock will be running to get fish in my display!

 

[mrpontiac80]

Noting the age of this post, do you still see and recommend the 2nd protocol to eliminate velvet as well? I think i prefer this method as I do not want to risk fish stress with chems and kill my new pets due to a poor measurement or other mistake i could easily make. However, i also want to remove as much opportunity for nature to kill them as well. Also, how do we validate Shrimp, crabs and snails? I have a new tank (my first) which is completely cycled and I will need to insert the cleaning crew as soon as my first fish go in. I plan to TTM two clowns and a Yellow Watchman Goby together in the next day! So my clock will be running to get fish in my display!

I have not read through this whole topic as I’m just now seeing it. But I have been quarantining using the httm method for about 3 years now with 100% success. I actually just started it again yesterday for 3 new additions.

There are many methods to quarantine and I personally feel like you should pick the one that you feel comfortable with and follow it to a T! Having said that I feel like httm is a Humblefish tested tried and true method and for those questions I would personally go straight to the source… Humble.fish

 

[EricR]

Noting the age of this post, do you still see and recommend the 2nd protocol to eliminate velvet as well? I think i prefer this method as I do not want to risk fish stress with chems and kill my new pets due to a poor measurement or other mistake i could easily make. However, i also want to remove as much opportunity for nature to kill them as well. Also, how do we validate Shrimp, crabs and snails? I have a new tank (my first) which is completely cycled and I will need to insert the cleaning crew as soon as my first fish go in. I plan to TTM two clowns and a Yellow Watchman Goby together in the next day! So my clock will be running to get fish in my display!

For TTM methods, check the Humblefish site below.
Like the last poster, I use Hybrid TTM (HTTM) and have had no issues,,, but I wasn't ever treating any active infection, just proactive on new fish.

All TTM Methods

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Noting the age of this post, do you still see and recommend the 2nd protocol to eliminate velvet as well? I think i prefer this method as I do not want to risk fish stress with chems and kill my new pets due to a poor measurement or other mistake i could easily make. However, i also want to remove as much opportunity for nature to kill them as well. Also, how do we validate Shrimp, crabs and snails? I have a new tank (my first) which is completely cycled and I will need to insert the cleaning crew as soon as my first fish go in. I plan to TTM two clowns and a Yellow Watchman Goby together in the next day! So my clock will be running to get fish in my display!

I don’t recommend TTM at all for active infections - you need a clean tank to then hold the fish through the fallow period.
For new fish, it has some benefit against marine ich, but falls short for flukes. Moving the fish that often is also stressful. You also want to avoid TTM if all you have is top down viewing - you can’t monitor the fish well enough.
I stopped using TTM back in 1987, there are always better options.
Jay

 

[EricR]

I'll just mention that PetCo has Aqueon 10 gallon glass tanks for $12.49 right now -- two of those is what I use for HTTM,,, plus disposable air stones and lengths of air hose for each transfer (like mentioned by someone else).
*not sure where Jay falls on the H2O2 component of HTTM so listen to him if you're dealing with an active infection

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'll just mention that PetCo has Aqueon 10 gallon glass tanks for $12.49 right now -- two of those is what I use for HTTM,,, plus disposable air stones and lengths of air hose for each transfer (like mentioned by someone else).
*not sure where Jay falls on the H2O2 component of HTTM so listen to him if you're dealing with an active infection

The peroxide component is added because TTM doesn’t work well for velvet and a 150ppm peroxide dip (30 minutes I think) and then moving to a clean tank and repeating 3x was shown in a study to control velvet in pacific threadfin. Using lower dose peroxide (below 75 ppm) is likely not effective. Also, extrapolation can also be an issue - all of this was predicated on one species, in one study.

Jay

 

[EricR]

The peroxide component is added because TTM doesn’t work well for velvet and a 150ppm peroxide dip (30 minutes I think) and then moving to a clean tank and repeating 3x was shown in a study to control velvet in pacific threadfin. Using lower dose peroxide (below 75 ppm) is likely not effective. Also, extrapolation can also be an issue - all of this was predicated on one species, in one study.

Jay

HTTM includes 150ppm H2O2 baths for 30 minutes spaced 6 days apart.
It seemed like the consensus on the other site is that's where best benefit lies so that's what I've been doing.
*haven't had to treat any active infection (yet) and for me it's something I can follow easily,,, sorry for the tangent

 

[MnFish1]

HTTM includes 150ppm H2O2 baths for 30 minutes spaced 6 days apart.
It seemed like the consensus on the other site is that's where best benefit lies so that's what I've been doing.
*haven't had to treat any active infection (yet) and for me it's something I can follow easily,,, sorry for the tangent

The other site has smart people so I'm no disagreement there. However, from a science perspective, this does not make complete/much sense. I'm not sure there is a randomized controlled study out there. (Which of course is difficult). My comment relates to the fact that many people even on this site do not QT at all - whether observation or medication - so its unclear whether any TTM method is better than just dropping fish into the tank from the LFS. (for anything but Ich)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

HTTM includes 150ppm H2O2 baths for 30 minutes spaced 6 days apart.
It seemed like the consensus on the other site is that's where best benefit lies so that's what I've been doing.
*haven't had to treat any active infection (yet) and for me it's something I can follow easily,,, sorry for the tangent

Trouble is, in the original study, the fish had to be moved to sterile new tanks. Velvet has the same basic reproductive stages as ich does, so putting a dipped fish back into the same tank just continues the infection.

Jay

 

[Tired]

Do keep in mind, as regards stress, that catching the fish to move them between tanks is stressful. Whether it's more or less stress on them than medication is going to depend a lot on fish species, individual fish personality, exactly what medication is being considered, and how easily they can be caught. I have a suspicion that it might be slightly less stressful if the tanks are identical, to at least spare them the trouble of having to re-learn their surroundings.