The importance of keeping consistent parameters

[Charterreefer]

I wanted to share what I observed last week. I feel it is a good example of the value of maintaining consistent parameters and in being consistent in testing as well. I feel it effects sps owners especially since these types of systems do not tolerate large and/or fast changes.
Here's the scenario:
Two of my yellow coral (wolverine, pikachu) were getting that greenish glow to them (that I don't like) and I wanted to get them back to that beautiful yellow color that they can be. I decided to lower my PO4 level from approx 0.2 closer to 0 (just detectable so as not to shock the other sps) in hopes that the lower nutrient level would help in bringing back the yellow color. I stopped dosing PO4. In three days my dkh went from 7.5 to 8.5!! Yeah, a whole 1.0 degree in three days! Luckily, I had been monitoring my critical levels 1 - 2 times a day since I knew I was changing a critical parameter... I caught it fast.
What happened was that the energy level of my tank nosedived from the lack of PO4 thereby lowering the metabolism and decreasing the Ca demand of all inhabitants which in turn threw the dkh level way up. I have very high water flow and ~450 PAR so the results apparently happened very fast due to the high energy environment.
I immediately resumed my daily PO4 dosing (though 1/2 of what I was originally dosing) and my dkh level started to rise immediately as well. Within 24 hours the dkh level was back to normal.

The effected coral are still greenish but I'm hoping that halving the original PO4 dose will help in getting them back to that school bus yellow! I also now have a pp Billion PO4 meter instead of the less accurate and older pp Million meter. This should help in maintaining more consistent (very low) PO4 levels.

 

[jda]

Low phosphate levels encourage calcification. Be ready for a growth spurt and higher consumption.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

I do not try to lower my po4 anymore. When I was chasing lower po4 I would always experience a lot of RTN, even with a very slight Change. IMO Increasing water flow and having relatively high ca and alk is a better way to encourage coral growth/ +health than trying to achieve the same via lowering the po4 .

Edit: Trying to achieve a specific color, might be a different story though.

 

[Bryn]

@Charterreefer

Please excuse my ignorance. So by dropping your PO4, your corals calcification slowed so your dKH rose from 7.5 to 8.5, when you resumed dosing PO4 but at half rate your dKH went back down due to increased calcification.

Your wording confused me, which trust me is not difficult to do, especially being "new" to SPS.

 

[markalot]

@Charterreefer

Please excuse my ignorance. So by dropping your PO4, your corals calcification slowed so your dKH rose from 7.5 to 8.5, when you resumed dosing PO4 but at half rate your dKH went back down due to increased calcification.

Your wording confused me, which trust me is not difficult to do, especially being "new" to SPS.

My opinions ...

Acropora, specifically, thrive on stability MORE than good or bad values. So changing anything will lead to issues. In addition, there is no hard evidence that higher PO4 does anything bad to Acros, color or growth. I would only apply this to acros though, other SPS aren't nearly as sensitive, and of course some Acros aren't either. There are also some Acros that really won't color up well in high PO4, I just avoid them when I find them.

Even changes in lighting can adversely effect Acros, something talked about in a recent BRS Investigates video. Might be one of the reason some users have trouble growing Acros under LED while some do not. The type that set once and leave alone have good results.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

I'm looking at the same weird readings. I had PO4 that was at 0.10 ppm and in two days I lowered it to 0.018 by running GFO and my Alkalinity seemed to rise from 8.4 dkh to 9.2 dkh. Weird. I need to test again.

 

[Charterreefer]

@Charterreefer

Please excuse my ignorance. So by dropping your PO4, your corals calcification slowed so your dKH rose from 7.5 to 8.5, when you resumed dosing PO4 but at half rate your dKH went back down due to increased calcification.

Your wording confused me, which trust me is not difficult to do, especially being "new" to SPS.

Yes, you are correct!
What I was illustrating was how one parameter can effect the other, and quite acutely. I only resumed the PO4 dosing by 1/2 because 1) I wanted to continue on a lower PO4 level (0 PO4 is not good), as to try to get the greenish glow out of the yellow coral and 2) I was able to bring the dkh back down a bit by increasing the energy/metabolism thereby increasing the calcification. I want to keep it at or a little below 8.0 dkh since I run nutrients on the low side and don't want to burn my sps.
It was a bad situation because at a low nutrient level the sps are very susceptible to high dkh levels. I was showing what can easily (unwittingly) happen to a system and cause a crash.

 

[Charterreefer]

I'm looking at the same weird readings. I had PO4 that was at 0.10 ppm and in two days I lowered it to 0.018 by running GFO and my Alkalinity seemed to rise from 8.4 dkh to 9.2 dkh. Weird. I need to test again.

Not weird ... Lower PO4 level lowers the metabolism of the corals which lowers uptake of Ca effectively raising your dhk level. I wouldn't think by that much though. I believe Randy had discussed GFO and it's effects on dkh.

 

[hart24601]

I think it's pretty well studied that phosphate inhibits calcification. From the article -

Phosphate is known to inhibit the precipitation of calcium carbonate from seawater. 2-4 The presence of phosphate in the water also decreases calcification in corals, such as Pocillopora damicornis 5 and entire patch reefs.

This inhibition of calcification takes place at concentrations frequently attained in reef aquaria and may begin at levels below those detectable by hobby test kits. For example, one research group found that long-term enrichment of phosphate (0.19 ppm; maintained for three hours per day) on a natural patch reef on the Great Barrier Reef inhibited overall coral calcification by 43%.6 A second team found effects in several Acropora species at similar concentrations

http://www.reefedition.com/phosphate-in-the-reef-aquarium-by-randy-holmes-farley/

I have noticed personally, that I get much better results in terms of growth and color when phosphate tests 0ppb and it's nitrate that I want a trace of color with test kits. I feel like we as a hobby finally figured out we need trace amounts of nitrates, and many people have carried that thought over to phosphates as well, but IME if you are feeding fish there are plenty of phosphates present even when detecting 0ppb. I can tell when my GFO is exhausted because my mari colonies start to brown up almost instantly with detectable levels of phosphate. Of course this does vary by system with some large old tanks with huge coral colonies running higher phosphate, but that seems to be the exception. If anything I would have expected the lower phosphates will eventually increase your demand as they grow faster.

 

[Chris Villalobos]

Not weird ... Lower PO4 level lowers the metabolism of the corals which lowers uptake of Ca effectively raising your dhk level. I wouldn't think by that much though. I believe Randy had discussed GFO and it's effects on dkh.

Well that would seem counter intuitive since the gold standard for PO4 is < 0.03 ppm. Do we want coral growth or not. If lowering PO4 reduces growth maybe 0.03 ppm is too low?

 

[hart24601]

I think it's pretty well established lowering phosphate encourages growth, in general, such as in Randy's article. Now the change from one level to another, even if lower, might slow growth for a while.

 

[Charterreefer]

I'm looking at the same weird readings. I had PO4 that was at 0.10 ppm and in two days I lowered it to 0.018 by running GFO and my Alkalinity seemed to rise from 8.4 dkh to 9.2 dkh. Weird. I need to test again.

Sorry, I read that as 0.01 not 0.1! That is weird.

 

[Charterreefer]

I think it's pretty well established lowering phosphate encourages growth, in general, such as in Randy's article. Now the change from one level to another, even if lower, might slow growth for a while.

Excessive PO4 levels lowers growth. Keeping PO4 at 0.01-0.02 ppm always has resulted in good growth for me, 0 PO4 and corals lose color and don't grow well. NO3 is maintained at ~1.00ppm.

 

[pdiehm]

Excessive PO4 levels lowers growth. Keeping PO4 at 0.01-0.02 ppm always has resulted in good growth for me, 0 PO4 and corals lose color and don't grow well. NO3 is maintained at ~1.00ppm.

I struggle to get PO4 to 0.01-0.02. It's almost always 0ppb for me. I even feed more than I probably should, though the fish love it. Things are alive, not necessarily growing well, color is OK. I'm hoping as I add more fish, the PO4 will rise naturally. I don't run GFO, though up til about a week ago, was dosing NoPox regularly (which I have stopped).

My NO3 is 2-4ppm per Red Sea Pro

 

[hart24601]

0 parts per billion phosphate here. No Photoshop, just white balance on camera.

I found 0 detectable nitrates lose color, but not phophate unless not feeding fish daily.

 

[markalot]

I think it's pretty well established lowering phosphate encourages growth, in general, such as in Randy's article. Now the change from one level to another, even if lower, might slow growth for a while.

It has not been scientifically established and there are plenty of tanks with elevated PO4 and good growth, as there are plenty of tanks, like above, with very low PO4 and good growth and color. PO4, as long as it's stable, does not seem to present growth or coloration issues that we were all led to believe. Can you get better color and growth with lower PO4? Do we really know for sure? I still assume yes for color, I'm not so sure about growth.

If you look at the last post in my tank thread you'll see where I dropped my PO4 too, way too low (nitrates also 0), and I have faded corals and slower growth as well. It's because of the change, not the number. If I held these numbers for a few months things would probably pick back up again.

 

[hart24601]

That does match my experience with nitrates being undetectable and losing colors as I dose nitrate after hitting undetectable and lost color. Appreciate you saying my tank has nice color tho! It also won the acro grow out contest here a few years back at 0ppb phophate.

I think scientific evidence is pretty well established that elevated phosphate hinders growth, (see the papers in Randy's article) the more interesting research would be under what conditions, such as in a handful of systems, allows coral to keep growing under high phosphate levels and what is the mechanism behind it and if the growth is depressed but with the coral being so large it doesn't matter much.

 

[Charterreefer]

I struggle to get PO4 to 0.01-0.02. It's almost always 0ppb for me. I even feed more than I probably should, though the fish love it. Things are alive, not necessarily growing well, color is OK. I'm hoping as I add more fish, the PO4 will rise naturally. I don't run GFO, though up til about a week ago, was dosing NoPox regularly (which I have stopped).

My NO3 is 2-4ppm per Red Sea Pro

The general consensus around here seems to be about 1-2 ppm NO3 and 0.01-0.02 ppm PO4 for SPS tanks (which I have). Softies and LPS tanks are usually maintained at higher NO3 and PO4 levels. Adding more fish will definitely help with the PO4 issue. Keep and eye on PO4/ NO3 levels while doing so.

 

[markalot]

That does match my experience with nitrates being undetectable and losing colors as I dose nitrate after hitting undetectable and lost color. Appreciate you saying my tank has nice color tho! It also won the acro grow out contest here a few years back at 0ppb phophate.

I think scientific evidence is pretty well established that elevated phosphate hinders growth, (see the papers in Randy's article) the more interesting research would be under what conditions, such as in a handful of systems, allows coral to keep growing under high phosphate levels and what is the mechanism behind it and if the growth is depressed but with the coral being so large it doesn't matter much.

Hate to pick on you, but this is not correct. RHF, for all his awesomeness, does not make it true. Richard Ross has shown this as well. There was also a scientific publication showing that PO4 increased growth in a particular Acropora, though it also found this growth to be more brittle.

https://reefbuilders.com/2011/12/05/acropora-phosphate-growth/

After keeping genetically distinct samples of Acropora muriata in the three treatments for four months the corals were analyzed for length, weight, density and even coloration of the growth margins. The Acropora grew in all four treatments: slowest at the lowest level of phosphate and they grew fastest at the high phosphate concentration of 0.5mg/l. The study notes that although phosphate increased overall growth, it led to lower skeletal density – this is perhaps not that much of an issue in aquariums but in the wild it would lead to more brittle branches that would be more susceptible to breaking in strong flow.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative but I'm an older reefer (54) who, unfortunately, is still fairly new at growing acros. I'm in my 5th year, with only 2 successful years under my belt. I have been told so much wrong information, or incomplete information, or opinions presented as facts with the best intentions, usually because the person giving the information has mistaken reef knowledge and accepted reef science as fact. Only controlled experiments can produce reliable results.

 

[Charterreefer]

Hate to pick on you, but this is not correct. RHF, for all his awesomeness, does not make it true. Richard Ross has shown this as well. There was also a scientific publication showing that PO4 increased growth in a particular Acropora, though it also found this growth to be more brittle.

https://reefbuilders.com/2011/12/05/acropora-phosphate-growth/

After keeping genetically distinct samples of Acropora muriata in the three treatments for four months the corals were analyzed for length, weight, density and even coloration of the growth margins. The Acropora grew in all four treatments: slowest at the lowest level of phosphate and they grew fastest at the high phosphate concentration of 0.5mg/l. The study notes that although phosphate increased overall growth, it led to lower skeletal density – this is perhaps not that much of an issue in aquariums but in the wild it would lead to more brittle branches that would be more susceptible to breaking in strong flow.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative but I'm an older reefer (54) who, unfortunately, is still fairly new at growing acros. I'm in my 5th year, with only 2 successful years under my belt. I have been told so much wrong information, or incomplete information, or opinions presented as facts with the best intentions, usually because the person giving the information has mistaken reef knowledge and accepted reef science as fact. Only controlled experiments can produce reliable results.

Hate to pick on you, but this is not correct. RHF, for all his awesomeness, does not make it true. Richard Ross has shown this as well. There was also a scientific publication showing that PO4 increased growth in a particular Acropora, though it also found this growth to be more brittle.

https://reefbuilders.com/2011/12/05/acropora-phosphate-growth/

After keeping genetically distinct samples of Acropora muriata in the three treatments for four months the corals were analyzed for length, weight, density and even coloration of the growth margins. The Acropora grew in all four treatments: slowest at the lowest level of phosphate and they grew fastest at the high phosphate concentration of 0.5mg/l. The study notes that although phosphate increased overall growth, it led to lower skeletal density – this is perhaps not that much of an issue in aquariums but in the wild it would lead to more brittle branches that would be more susceptible to breaking in strong flow.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative but I'm an older reefer (54) who, unfortunately, is still fairly new at growing acros. I'm in my 5th year, with only 2 successful years under my belt. I have been told so much wrong information, or incomplete information, or opinions presented as facts with the best intentions, usually because the person giving the information has mistaken reef knowledge and accepted reef science as fact. Only controlled experiments can produce reliable results.

Sorry if my artic

Hate to pick on you, but this is not correct. RHF, for all his awesomeness, does not make it true. Richard Ross has shown this as well. There was also a scientific publication showing that PO4 increased growth in a particular Acropora, though it also found this growth to be more brittle.

https://reefbuilders.com/2011/12/05/acropora-phosphate-growth/

After keeping genetically distinct samples of Acropora muriata in the three treatments for four months the corals were analyzed for length, weight, density and even coloration of the growth margins. The Acropora grew in all four treatments: slowest at the lowest level of phosphate and they grew fastest at the high phosphate concentration of 0.5mg/l. The study notes that although phosphate increased overall growth, it led to lower skeletal density – this is perhaps not that much of an issue in aquariums but in the wild it would lead to more brittle branches that would be more susceptible to breaking in strong flow.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative but I'm an older reefer (54) who, unfortunately, is still fairly new at growing acros. I'm in my 5th year, with only 2 successful years under my belt. I have been told so much wrong information, or incomplete information, or opinions presented as facts with the best intentions, usually because the person giving the information has mistaken reef knowledge and accepted reef science as fact. Only controlled experiments can produce reliable results.

Hello Markalot, There are a lot of opinions out there. It sounds like you're realizing that everyone's system is unique. BRS is coming about the closest to "controlled experiments" with redundant systems and actual control tanks. They have a lot of support $$ from their equipment vendors to make it possible. It will be nice to see what data they come up with in the future. And, Triton with the information their water tests help to provide.