The importance of keeping consistent parameters

[hart24601]

So the experiments in Randy's article are not true and not science?

I wasn't aware of that paper and it's good to see, however it doesn't automatically disqualify other research as not scientific.

But I am not one for parroting information. I showed my tank and winning the acro growout contest with 0 detectable phosphate. If one doesn't like that growth or looks of that system that's perfectly fine, but ime don't listen to people without seeing what they have accomplished in the hobby.

 

[markalot]

Sorry if my artic


Hello Markalot, There are a lot of opinions out there. It sounds like you're realizing that everyone's system is unique. BRS is coming about the closest to "controlled experiments" with redundant systems and actual control tanks. They have a lot of support $$ from their equipment vendors to make it possible. It will be nice to see what data they come up with in the future. And, Triton with the information their water tests help to provide.

Something got cut off ... but yea, I agree, the BRS testing is simply awesome. Just to be clear, that article I linked too was talking about an actual controlled experiment, those results are real. I can't view the original paper and I don't know what size tank or other conditions they tested at. They did not that while growth was fast in high PO4 growth tips were brown.

The thing about people thinking low PO4 increases growth is that usually it's accompanied by something else. It also may be the coral, that test only looked at a single variety, but they made sure each was genetically unique (not a clone).

 

[jda]

I get by-far the fastest growth under very low N and P levels at about .1 and .01. Colors are more vibrant and have better contrast at this level, but get more saturated and deeper if the P gets up to .1. To each their own on color, but unequivocally the growth is significantly better near NSW parameters for me.

It is very important to distinguish tanks with high N and P levels and how they got there. Everybody likes to point to a few tanks with high N and P and show how they are thriving, but nearly every one that I have seen got all of it's growth and thriving periods when under lower levels. The period of higher N and P have mostly maintained what was accomplished before and lots had a few losses. ...not all are like this, but many are. Also, as a super picky acropora snob, there are notable missing types of corals in all of these tanks nearly without exception.

All of this being said, I would rather have elevated N and P than have them bounce around too much. In this order, I would focus on stability, then low, then "whatever" levels. Whatever is better than unstable, IMO.

FWIW - Dr Holmes-Farley was referencing a very large study in his article. There is a reference to it at the bottom that shows the vastness and control. It is very legit, IMO. I have no idea if it can still be found online, but it is worth a read if you can.

 

[hart24601]

It's also important to remember if you are feeding the fish and coral there is phosphate present in the system even if testing 0.

I don't have access to scientific papers anymore, were those coral fed in the study or were they isolated with filtered seawater? Having worked in science for many years it's always good to see research, but at the same time it's important to also keep in mind the findings are many times only true under the exact same conditions of the experiment with the exact same subjects. Not that's it's not interesting, but I would like to see a tank that someone started at day 1 at 0.5ppm phosphate and kept at that level.

I do agree that keeping levels either high, or low, is important.

 

[jda]

I am the biggest doocher on this board so take this FWIW, but please be just a bit wary of BRS "testing." It is a data point, but it is hardly scientific and often lacks control and/or peer review. I do not think that they go into stuff with pre-conceived outcomes to sell their products, but I do think that they oftentimes miss some key elements and nuance. Their videos have had some unintended consequences and that unintentionally harmed people on some things over the years, but I blame the hobbyist for not employing caveat emptor and not BRS for giving it a good try. I consider BRS studies the same as a good hobbyist study with lots of patience and good documentation. However, if somebody like Coppolino told me something to the contrary, I would believe him over BRS in a heartbeat.

There is little to dispute that calcification is inhibited when phosphates get higher. This is well documented and proven. The level is totally dependent on the host. I look at coralline to be my guide. If I am not scraping off dime sized NEW spots of coralline off the front glass every few weeks, then calcification is not as good as it could be. However, the slower level might be good enough for most folks and especially when tanks start to get full. I am OK with my acropora slowing down at about year three when they are all touching and I am about ready to butcher them.

Unless you are striping phosphate with GFO, LC or organic carbon, then there is always some. Natural combatants whether it be aragonite binding, macro algae or just plain-old growth will always keep a bit to drive the on-going equilibrium.

 

[markalot]

So the experiments in Randy's article are not true and not science?

I wasn't aware of that paper and it's good to see, however it doesn't automatically disqualify other research as not scientific.

But I am not one for parroting information. I showed my tank and winning the acro growout contest with 0 detectable phosphate. If one doesn't like that growth or looks of that system that's perfectly fine, but ime don't listen to people without seeing what they have accomplished in the hobby.

It feels like I'm picking on RHF here, but he did not do any experiments. What experiments did he do that you are referring too. A lot of his theories are very sound, grounded in chemistry. The rest he is very careful to state what should happen or what is thought to happen.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second statement. Your tank is nice, and colorful, though the acros are kinda small.

I have low PO4 on the lower side (.05 or so) and constantly battle low nitrates. I know people who have higher PO4, much higher, and have large very colorful colonies.

He hasn't been convinced to come over here yet. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2459858&page=119

As for me,

The slimer is the most obvious, but all my colonies have grown tremendously, almost too fast. I've never done a growout contest mainly because I don;t want to add a pest to my tank. No new acros unless something horrible goes wrong and I decide to do it again. Compared to Matt's tank linked above, mine is CRAP.

10 months ago

Today

 

[bif24701]

0 parts per billion phosphate here. No Photoshop, just white balance on camera.

I found 0 detectable nitrates lose color, but not phophate unless not feeding fish daily.

That’s exactly what I have seen. As long as you are not removing PO4 faster than it is introduced to the system by using GFO or lots of carbon dosing there will be plenty of PO4 corals added through feeding. So a zero reading isn’t a bad thing in its self. Zero PO4 + carbon dosing/GFO will give you problems as it effectively removes PO4 before it can be utilized buy growing coral.

I have a large refugium and MarinePure Blocks that very effectively control NO3 and PO4. Though my PO4 can be very low I don’t worry because I know very well that foods contain lots of it and more than enough for my corals. Since I don’t run GFO PO4 isn’t removed so quickly that my corals don’t have a chance to use it.

However if my NO3 readings drop below 2-3ppm then I will start to see pale corals and a drop in dKH(ALK) uptake.

Only since I have been testing dKH everyday have I been able to find the perfect balance of light, nutrients, flow, filtering, and feeding so that I can maintain a stable reef system. This has resulted in the best and longest period of good health, growth, and color of all my corals especially Acros.

To add another observation: I have seen nothing have a greater and longer negative impact on my acros as quickly reducing PO4 with GFO. Not exactly sure why but it does have something to do with the sudden and significant rise in ALK/dKH. I have luckily been able to maintain a very stable ALK with Kalk for years and only when it became very high very quickly have I seen big problems. Only two causes for my self, but there are an infinate number, for ALK to spike. One is GFO and the other was using a lot of Kalk paste to control Aipatsia. Each time the ALK rose very quickly and though I recovered the levels in a few days it took a weeks for the corals to recover.

Stability is super important when it comes to a reef and especially ALK. Many many things if upset can affect ALK so keeping everything stable is also important.

 

[hart24601]

It feels like I'm picking on RHF here, but he did not do any experiments. What experiments did he do that you are referring too. A lot of his theories are very sound, grounded in chemistry. The rest he is very careful to state what should happen or what is thought to happen.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second statement. Your tank is nice, and colorful, though the acros are kinda small.

I have low PO4 on the lower side (.05 or so) and constantly battle low nitrates. I know people who have higher PO4, much higher, and have large very colorful colonies.

He hasn't been convinced to come over here yet. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2459858&page=119

As for me,

The slimer is the most obvious, but all my colonies have grown tremendously, almost too fast. I've never done a growout contest mainly because I don;t want to add a pest to my tank. No new acros unless something horrible goes wrong and I decide to do it again. Compared to Matt's tank linked above, mine is CRAP.

10 months ago

Today

Did you read his article? He gives references to studies. Scientific research papers. They are referenced with numbers and listed at the end.

 

[Charterreefer]

That’s exactly what I have seen. As long as you are not removing PO4 faster than it is introduced to the system by using GFO or lots of carbon dosing there will be plenty of PO4 corals added through feeding. So a zero reading isn’t a bad thing in its self. Zero PO4 + carbon dosing/GFO will give you problems as it effectively removes PO4 before it can be utilized buy growing coral.

I have a large refugium and MarinePure Blocks that very effectively control NO3 and PO4. Though my PO4 can be very low I don’t worry because I know very well that foods contain lots of it and more than enough for my corals. Since I don’t run GFO PO4 isn’t removed so quickly that my corals don’t have a chance to use it.

However if my NO3 readings drop below 2-3ppm then I will start to see pale corals and a drop in dKH(ALK) uptake.

Only since I have been testing dKH everyday have I been able to find the perfect balance of light, nutrients, flow, filtering, and feeding so that I can maintain a stable reef system. This has resulted in the best and longest period of good health, growth, and color of all my corals especially Acros.

To add another observation: I have seen nothing have a greater and longer negative impact on my acros as quickly reducing PO4 with GFO. Not exactly sure why but it does have something to do with the sudden and significant rise in ALK/dKH. I have luckily been able to maintain a very stable ALK with Kalk for years and only when it became very high very quickly have I seen big problems. Only two causes for my self, but there are an infinate number, for ALK to spike. One is GFO and the other was using a lot of Kalk paste to control Aipatsia. Each time the ALK rose very quickly and though I recovered the levels in a few days it took a weeks for the corals to recover.

Stability is super important when it comes to a reef and especially ALK. Many many things if upset can affect ALK so keeping everything stable is also important.

...and I wanted to use kalk paste to take care of a green pocillopora outbreak I currently have! Maybe a little at a time.

 

[bif24701]

It’s not just the measured levels of PO4 and NO3. Also lighting and flow and many other things go into it. A system with high light may do better when PO4 is slightly higher. Another system may not do as well. Food input and availability plays a large part.

Comparing detectable NO3 and PO4 levels of one system to another separate system is comparing apples to oranges. Flat out there is not conclusions that can be made from it. Arguing others wise is futile.

 

[bif24701]

...and I wanted to use kalk paste to take care of a green pocillopora outbreak I currently have! Maybe a little at a time.

Certainly don’t try and do it all at once. Separate it by a few days. Though Kalk paste easily reaches saturation and doesn’t dissolve well in sea water large amount will have negative effects.

 

[Charterreefer]

Certainly don’t try and do it all at once. Separate it by a few days. Though Kalk paste easily reaches saturation and doesn’t dissolve well in sea water large amount will have negative effects.

I was going to apply the paste with minimal water movement and let it sit on the pocillopora for 10 min. It seems to form a thick shell that I will then siphon off. IME It doesn't seem to react with other coral after a few min even when it falls off. I will monitor the dkh. Thanks for the insight.

 

[markalot]

Did you read his article? He gives references to studies. Scientific research papers. They are referenced with numbers and listed at the end.

I assume this is the reference you are talking about?

6. Effects of elevated nitrogen and phosphorus on coral reef growth. Kinsey, Donald W.; Davies, Peter J. Limnol. Oceanogr. (1979), 24(5), 935-40.

I don't know, any more than I know why that one variety of acros grew faster. I can't find the article but a google search points to even more research that PO4 deficiencies lead to bleaching.

RHF actually says it best in his article.

With all this said, however, there are a few very nice reef aquaria that have exceptionally high phosphate, up to 2 ppm. This linked article has more details. Presumably, pest algae in these aquaria are inhibited by something other than low nutrients, and iron is a likely candidate. How such systems get around the inhibition of calcification is unclear, but apparently they can.

So now we need to figure out why, but not only can they get around inhibition, they never experience it. Even more surprising some have documented faster growth, supported by the study of Acros under higher Phosphate.

IMO tanks studies are more important than wild studies, but I get what you are saying. Maybe I'm wishing it wasn't accepted knowledge that low PO4 leads to better or faster growth, GFO and the like have killed a lot more corals than PO4 ever will.

I strive for a low PO4 reading, so there's that.

 

[jda]

Those tanks did all/most of their business before the PO4 got that high. Since then, they have been cruising. There have been losses of some things, but other things live. Look hard enough and you will see stuff that won't grow or live with the P that high - I cannot access the article, but the video that gets posted a lot has before and after photos and about half of the acropora is gone with the higher P. He has also questioned the testing in subsequent posts... some of these tanks and levels were before Hannah where you had to guess-a-color on Salifert. In any case, we can all agree that these are outliers and exceptions. I do not bet on the exception.

I guess that we should figure out what is high phosphates? Mutt has a great tank, but isn't he well below .25? I do not consider that high at all. I would start to worry at my house at about .5. I would expect death to my smoothies, milles and spaths at 1.0, if not sooner.

 

[bif24701]

I was going to apply the paste with minimal water movement and let it sit on the pocillopora for 10 min. It seems to form a thick shell that I will then siphon off. IME It doesn't seem to react with other coral after a few min even when it falls off. I will monitor the dkh. Thanks for the insight.

That’s a fine way to do it. The paste doesn’t dissolve well so as long as it stays in place that’s fine.

When I did it I way over did it. Didn’t kill anything but my acros where not happy. If you do less than 20-10ml you shouldn’t have any problems at all in a larger system.

 

[Charterreefer]

That’s a fine way to do it. The paste doesn’t dissolve well so as long as it stays in place that’s fine.

When I did it I way over did it. Didn’t kill anything but my acros where not happy. If you do less than 20-10ml you shouldn’t have any problems at all in a larger system.

Thank you for the info! That's very helpful. It seems like the it's the safest way to get rid of them as opposed to crunching them up and trying to siphon all the pieces out of the tank. I don't want them to reseed from doing it that way.
FYI: I bought a file fish when I had a massive aiptasia outbreak. It slowly built up for several months prior to getting the fish. I never saw it eating them but every last one disappeared while the filefish was in there... apparently ate them after lights out.

 

[biecacka]

JDA- how do you drive your n03 down that low. Mine stays in the 5-10 range and my p04 is around .08-0.1 typically?

Corey

 

[jda]

I have 3 inches of sand and a massive amount of real live rock. The deep parts of the sand bed are anoxic and is a terrific denitrifier. The deeper parts of the rock are as well. The tank is quite mature, also.

 

[bif24701]

Thank you for the info! That's very helpful. It seems like the it's the safest way to get rid of them as opposed to crunching them up and trying to siphon all the pieces out of the tank. I don't want them to reseed from doing it that way.
FYI: I bought a file fish when I had a massive aiptasia outbreak. It slowly built up for several months prior to getting the fish. I never saw it eating them but every last one disappeared while the filefish was in there... apparently ate them after lights out.

I am in fact ordering some ASAP. Few years ago had an outbreak and bought those nudis and the matted file fish. They disappeared and thought the nudis did it. Well this outbreak I have had the nudis for 4 months and they do a good job but not nearly fast enough. I feed too much and the aiptasia spread too fast. I believe the file fish must have been doing the bulk of the work.

 

[biecacka]

Not much sand in my system, about an inch or 2 near the back and none near the front. My tank isn't mature as in tank maturairity though. Only about 4.5 years old or so. But my numbers have been stable for a good period of time now. I run a few hundred pounds of live rock in my tank(live now).
But you are correct, the stability is the key.

Corey