Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

[brandon429]

https://reefbuilders.com/2017/05/27/old-tank-syndrome-revisited/


Pro article on old tank syndrome

how many key terms and actions from that article and comments section reinforce our sand rinse thread here


We have beaten old tank syndrome in pico reefing. Check nr.com

the only thing keeping full sized tankers from the same outcome is the size and access differences among tanks. where we can do complete action X in a pico packed full of coral, the large tanker is usually restricted to smaller increments of work which simply don't remove waste as thorough. a partial water change isn't the same export as a full water change, with another, back to back. that kind of access makes a real difference.

Beating old tank syndrome is easier in a pico reef due to sizing...it takes decades for larger tanks to register eutrophication than it does a reef of one or two gallons.


any arrangement someone wants to speed test will reveal results in just a few years on a pico reef, set up mini models to earn nitrate reduction or total mineralization at the bottom dredge layers and you'll be posting new ground.


Maritza the vase reef deserves special credit here. That vase reef does take on detritus, it's old for a pico reef and this goes to show breaking the rules is truly the only forward to the science



That micro reef is dosed with bacteria on a repeated basis... small doses, ill find the type soon in online articles and this mix quite likely digests detritus vs letting it compile. MVR doesn't do disassembly cleaning...innovates the OTS rule set, it's still the large water change approach (there always a work mechanism in the older OTS proof tanks) with internal breakdown of detritus, assisted by sludge digesting bacteria (similar action to prodibo and mb7 etc from what I associate the action)

 

[brandon429]

Ive been reading a bunch lately on google scholar its an amazing place to plug in aquarium terminology. google/google scholar/search only peer reviewed science outcomes for niche subjects.

you don't get whole articles without paying for them, but you get powerful summaries that give the end results of pages of science wording and that's nice.

Im searching premises posted on this thread using key terms like: nitrifying bacteria, nitrifying bacteria and dessication, biofilms, nitrifiers in the atmosphere (tropospheric biome vectoring is one way bacteria seed naturally when we don't use bottle bac) nitrification inhibition, ammonia toxicity, nitrite toxicity in nitrifiers, heterogeneity or homogeneity of microbial biofilms on marine substrata, you know just random terms heh

good returns so far, all applicable for our thread of deep tank diving:
marine biofilms
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00254-004-1044-x
http://www.aimspress.com/fileOther/PDF/microbiology/microbiol-02-00304.pdf


how do nitrifiers exist in nature?
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/19096878.pdf


If in my cycling aquarium, I accidentally input too many shrimp and the ammonia spikes to 8, will the filtration bacteria die?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1016/j.femsec.2005.05.001/full
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304389407010928


when we expose our live rocks to air, or our sand to freshwater as a brief and powerful rinse, how can the bacteria resist dying (online searches not from scholar make bacteria look weak, because they're selling bacteria typically a few links up the chain)

https://academic.oup.com/femsle/article/79/1/65/551993/Survival-of-ammonia-oxidising-bacteria-in-air

The three actions an aquarist might take that would truly impact their bacteria would be to seriously dry the system, thoroughly, or to cause a temp shift to the extreme and prolong it for a very very long time, or to enact some kind of medication event by reaching an in-situ tank toxicity level for a given parameter. if we read about nitrifying bacteria on regular google we get the feeling they're weak, the slightest temp or emersion or salinity shift will kill them.

if we read about nitrifiers off google scholar, and factor the differences in our tanks vs a pure lab culture, then we get a wholly opposite understanding of bacteria and from there we can apply really backwards aquarium practices to do better than what the norm would have us do, in my opinion.



After a half hour of random clicking on google scholar for any detail regarding nitrifying bacteria, do they appear weak or strong for the events aquarists subject them to?

Our thread here is about verifying full tank access in a repeatable manner using other peoples posts, lots of money and time on the line. the links in this google scholar section of the thread to me reveal the true nature of bacteria, and we exploit those strengths to attain unnatural ends for our aquaria: total control over all invasion conditions.

in the wild, a real reef isn't that lucky it can take decades for various forms of eutrophication (algae dominance and waste + potential) to wax and wane. in a tank, we command eutrophication or oligotrophic conditions by how well we keep house, we have fast control over the matter and we've been exerting that for 7 pages and one year now.

We have the ability to opt into or out of a cycle...into or out of old tank syndrome... all modulated by how we access waste that we choose to store or not store in our tanks.

you can make a reef tank have an indefinite biological lifespan if you will engineer access to all waste stores in the various zones of your aquarium, as waste will surely find every zone in a matter of time. Accessing the waste is the fountain of youth technique for a reef aquarium I hope to be able to prove it with my tiny old reef vase.

 

[Nano sapiens]

Good thread and lots of great information for those who want to keep a reef tank for an extended period of time.

The reefing community seems to consider a reef tank (especially a small one) that is in good condition after many, many years as an 'anomaly' and I've heard this a few times with my 9 year old 12g nano tank. This is understandable considering that accidents do happen and people move or upgrade. Barring these factors, however, IMO we need to change our perception as a community as to the true life potential of a reef aquarium (no matter it's size) and it's inhabitants.

From a biological perspective, there is no good reason for a mature tank to 'crash' if parameters are kept within accepted ranges, sufficient waste (detritus) is regularly exported to prevent increasing eutrophication of the system and the aquarist is mindful not to disrupt the coral holobiont and the benthic bacterial balance of the system.

Ralph.

 

[brandon429]

Agreed and thanks for the post!


When I kept digging further in the goog scholar area of things, I found where not cleaning biofiltration reduces the ability of any filter to negate ammonia.

The scums and layers of heterotrophic competing bacteria get too strong/competitive in numbers and in sludge, and through multiple mechanisms the rate of ammonia oxidation drops if the hands off technique is conveyed to filtration systems. They use filter backwashing in fish industries to attain some measure of this cleaning approach (we're dealing in so much excess surface area in a reef tank, its not likely to ever register as free ammonia in our tanks, just a matter of efficiency to reflect upon since this is a hands-on thread)



the longest running tanks from any size grouping are actively physically making sure the sandbed doesn't sink up. Paul does it via RUGF and diatom filtration/storms simulation where detritus is pulled out, plus he has parted out and cleaned his tank via skip cycle methods before we see in posts, though its not very often (size, dilution, ATS, natural bacterial systems in play much more diverse than we all roll with synthetic water etc)

yours is the longest nano running on nr.com and you are active detritus exporter. I don't recall you parting out the sandbed, but Ive read your threads to see that you clean it. Mines oldest pico, and I attribute getting that way to rejecting detritus via creative means (and total luck on power outages, no nerf ball impacts etc)

I feel that another impact pico reefing and nano reefing has on the greater normal-size reef tank community is by showing that any proponent of hands off dsb as a complete technique has quite the challenge getting a nano tank to run that way. All hands off dsb nano tanks of years past are dead now. none to show age.

None of the research we read about how to manage sandbeds comes from small tank reflection, its all full ocean studies and much of it has problems getting replicated even in 100 gallon tanks.

 

[brandon429]

many ways to similar ends:

clearly its fun to rip deeply into tanks for total reworking, but its also an important balance to remark upon aged nanos and picos who literally do not rip into the sandbed and are still running well

anyone here can google Maritza the Vase reef

that's 5+ yrs and no sandbed ripping, however that tank gets consistent sludge-digesting bacteria added as part of the regular routine, and top detritus is still taken out via siphon in the weekly water changes of 90%. That's sandbed maintenance, same ends ( a bed not packed full of nitrate ) although the combination of events handles detritus without having to actual de-mud the bed. It never gets muddy, in that arrangement and timing of things. Her vase model will last with an indefinite biological lifespan due to that.


*****Nano Sapiens is 100% correct in saying its possible to have an ageless home reef aquarium, biologically speaking, we're replicating that in tiny tanks as we speak and the sole mechanism (beyond hardware luck etc) is keeping them clean in some creative way. Nanos will register algae dominance/waste compounding/eutrophication much faster than larger tanks that way a given approach can be studied in scale conveniently.

Old Tank syndrome is easily defeated in any aquarium, its something we opt into or out of by how we manage waste in the system.

 

[Nano sapiens]

Agreed and thanks for the post!

When I kept digging further in the goog scholar area of things, I found where not cleaning biofiltration reduces the ability of any filter to negate ammonia.

The scums and layers of heterotrophic competing bacteria get too strong/competitive in numbers and in sludge, and through multiple mechanisms the rate of ammonia oxidation drops if the hands off technique is conveyed to filtration systems.

In a reef tank, the advection principle will ensure that detritus is built up around any object resting on (or in) the sand bed. Thinking this through, if a substrate is clogged with sediment/detritus then the resident bacteria will experience reduced flow and lessened input of the substances needed to complete the various cycles (carbon, nitrogen and phosphate). Efficiency reduction of any these essential cycles will negatively impact the functioning of the system.

yours is the longest nano running on nr.com and you are active detritus exporter. I don't recall you parting out the sandbed, but Ive read your threads to see that you clean it. Mines oldest pico, and I attribute getting that way to rejecting detritus via creative means (and total luck on power outages, no nerf ball impacts etc)

Thanks, but not the longest running nano as I believe that there are a few over 10 years. The live rock and most of the sand bed is now 18 years old (came from my previous 55g) and I just add some sand occasionally to maintain ~1" level. I vacuum the sand bed and rear chambers weekly and under each individual base rock every 2 months or so. Basically, I use a yearly repeating cycle to keep the system clean. I also use a filter sock temporarily every 2-3 weeks during my weekly cleaning to help catch stirred up material.

 

[brandon429]

such valuable input that's just great biological detailing for our action thread. there are many larger tanks running just fine on hands-off sandbedding, usually we're responding to challenges/moves/outbreaks etc

the ones with smooth running tend to hold course ime
at least we've improved from "do not touch a reef sandbed whatsoever"

That claim is how our hobby was built, online at least. it took some people poking around with sticks to make a new offshoot keeping method

 

[Nano sapiens]

such valuable input that's just great biological detailing for our action thread

Not mentioned as much as it could be, but should be of interest. In addition to the removal of organic and inorganic forms of phosphate found in the detritus itself, detritus removal from the substrate also facilitates regular removal of some amount of benthic bacteria. This is an additional avenue to removal of phosphate from the system as it is contained within the bacteria. But more than that, as the remaining bacteria multiply and grow they will then incorporate phosphate into their tissues (as all creatures must). I believe this constant removal/assimilation cycle is at least partially responsible for the undetectable phosphate levels I've encountered for many years in my well-fed 'unfiltered' reef aquarium.

 

[brandon429]

had not considered that cleaning being equivalent to carbon dosing in net effect...mass removal, that's fantastic ~ agreed. marine snow feed and export the right way>neat way to reflect and harness natural feed webs.


Right now in another thread we are discussing options of adding new sand to existing beds. My advice was not to cap existing waste, this is what planted tanks do to contain organics for slow release using the Walstad dirted bottom method of planted tank design (avoids the need for CO2 injection, it works, goog if interested)

for a reef tank sensitive to storing waste (and for a thread about keeping clean display tank sandbeds) in this case I wanted the keeper to drop-test the current bed and see how bad it clouds. If it was pretty rough, or if they've had persistent topical invasion issues, I reco'd the full bed rip cleaning then we add whatever rinsed sand we want to add. In the end we don't want to cap waste. if this bed had exceptional animal turnover of the bed (rare in tanks, usually they just sink and drop the waste the bottom layers) then adding clean sand to old wont matter because it will all get mixed soon anyway, but typically we deal in clean bedding here and when adding sands to existing I can't find a reason to deviate from having full control over a sandbed and making sure they run cloudless with any combination of sands.

 

[Nano sapiens]

had not considered that cleaning being equivalent to carbon dosing in net effect...mass removal, that's fantastic ~ agreed. marine snow feed and export the right way>neat way to reflect and harness natural feed webs.

IMO, as long as a system is fed well and not over-filtered, carbon should not be a limiting factor (especially not limiting in the more 'natural' systems that do not use skimmers, GAC, GFO, etc.). We run into trouble when a system is under-fed and/or has very efficient filtration which leads to carbon becoming a scarce commodity. This unfortunately common state of affairs has spurred the interest in carbon dosing and removal of the resulting increased population of bacteria in the water column via skimming.

 

[brandon429]

https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/385825-issues-after-moving/?tab=comments#comment-5576607

fantastic sandbed thrashing here, before n afters

The statement made there about having the bacterial -freedom- to clean this deep is why our thread exists


One can trust the microbiology of deep access sandbed work. Simply do not deal in partial waste actions, so simple and repeatable.


Though it doesn’t seem this way, these folks with nano reefs are providing full tank reefers the best insight on the matter possible, they’ve no dilution.


Any nano has zero room for calculation and execution mistakes (reasons I left detritus in a post rinse setup)

Any large tanker has room for errors due to dilution, but no need for that. Nothing we do cleaning wise will harm our tanks bacteria. I just tap rinsed my sandbed last week as catchup, from months of neglect.

 

[brandon429]

Bump

Our thread cures all cloudy situations even if it's not the sand causing it

We set back up skip cycle, brand new tanks using all the original gear, so we don't need to id things much.

We've been using all new water on the rebuilds, which removes the cloud whatever it may be

You got something black/blue/red/green/golden on the sand bed? ID not required here, you'll end up with a clean tank. Cloudy water? Try something easy first. If it didn't work, rip clean the tank we did here and it'll work.

We discern the boundaries of tank access by the courage of posters willing to put their $ on the line and take them pics~ many a deep clean is going down.

 

[Rob77]

Rinsed my sand ! I would never do it any other way again !!!

 

[Rob77]

Also @brandon429 .... this thread is the reason I rinsed my sand .... thanks bro!!!

 

[brandon429]

Rob thank you for posting we're clean sanding around here!

 

[5altkreep]

Ill add my .02 quick. Earlier this year I upgraded to "nused" 75g.
@Robin Haselden ( told ya id use it!)
Amyways, i was a little concerned about the livestock, and what to do with the existing substrate. Everything i had read up to that point suggested new sand. Then I stumbled across this thread. 125 miles, and 2 days of tear down, move, and setup. I rinsed the substrate in 5 gal buckets with the garden hose. Didnt lose any livestock, and no cycle! Thanks for the interesting read!

 

[brandon429]

What good momentum for the thread I wasn't expecting that from the bumps, so very glad it's all $ good gracias 5altC

 

[brandon429]

Just found a gem

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/simple-nano.230757/page-3

Look at his interception of sandbed invasion. Force clean, no invader beats it. Check his updates, it's now tank of the month level. If he were to rinse his sandbed with tap water four thousand more times, his reef would only get better because he could be feeding it more due to the increased export.


Take note of what the growing masses of nano reefers and pico reefers are doing Team

They're forcing out invaders, not testing for nutrients and tinkering. Simple tank cleaning until you don't need to, and direct targeting of invaders vs tank-wide medication events will phase out the old manner of reefkeeper where the aquarist isn't in deciding control at all times. $ too much loss to continue that path.


It is easier to be algae free the smaller a system gets. The smaller a system gets the less excuse an aquarist has to be invaded.


No hesitation. You can rinse, poke, prod and pancake flip a cleaned sandbed, no more walking on rotten eggshells pun intended h sfide joke

We all have the ability to simply stop these tank invasions

Quit limiting ourselves to water dosing of medications or stripping nutrients (set your nutrients to what corals want)

Take your knife, take out a GHA rock, and rake the knifepoint at the holdfast/anchor level and debride, by force, the algae off the rocks. Put peroxide on the cleaned spots, not the invaded spots.

Rinse, and only put back into a tank that can pass our drop test from this thread.

If you do that, gha stops and we don't care what nitrate and phosphate are

We can beat early dino invasions that way too, documented already at nano- reef.com

Cyano and spirulina don't stand a chance


Gha, bryopsis, gone and nothing to practice ramp up immunity to (flucon)

Opt out of invasions by the force of your hand cleaning prowess

No invader builds an immunity to that


If natural nitrate reduction was anywhere near consistent in the typical DSB setup or live rock arrangement nobody would be using biopellets, no pox, vodka SV, ats scrubbers, etc

 

[brandon429]

 

[rockstarta78]

Came her per @brandon429 's suggestion. Following. So far read a lot, still lot left to read.