The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[MnFish1]

Mn, I don't know as I don't have quarantined fish. But it would be nice to know. I have been asking for years but no one seems to come forward with quarantined fish that are spawning. Any fish except clowns which will spawn on a damp sponge under a rock in Bayonne New Jersey.

If no one is spawning anything (except me) this hobby is in horrendous shape and we should give it up and collect stamps as fish spawn all the time, constantly, every few weeks and they can lay millions of eggs although I never counted them.

Every bottom dweller should spawn in a home tank and every fish that makes a nest.
The only fish that won't usually spawn in a small home tank are fish that broadcast eggs as they need much water feeling comfortable to do that.

Butterflies, tangs and whale sharks may find it hard to spawn in a small tank.

But even those fish will spawn in a large enough tank.

I agree with you - most fish are not spawning in our tanks (that we know of) - but what percentage of people have 2 of the same fish, properly sexed, etc. and also monitor continuously for spawning behavior. I just dont understand how 'QT' would affect spawning - It just doesn't make sense to me.

PS - my guess (guess only) is that those companies that are breeding multiple types of fish have some kind of biosecurity/QT process - and they are raising fry. No?

 

[Paul B]

I don't know but there are supposed to be over 10,000,000 people in the US along that have fish. I don't know how many are salt water fish, but it's like ETs from space. There are supposed to be billions of planets that could support life so are we the only ones with Supermodels?

You would think that a few of those 10 million people would have a pair of spawning, quarantined fish. In many cases you don't even need a mated pair. Many fish change sex, (some are just cross dressers)

I have spawned, besides stupid clowns, watchman gobies, sea horses, blue stripe pipes, Bangai Cardinals, Striped cardinals, mandarins, Clown Gobies, watchman gobies (I assume one was a Watchgirl) and numerous other fish without even trying. I just put fish in my tank and they spawn.

I know I can't be the only one because if I am, as I said, we should ban this hobby.

 

[Squidward]

When you say spawn.. do you mean actually raising the eggs to fry stage? Or just the eggs being eaten? Cause I'm sure yours aren't growing up to be fry and raising them like freshwater tanks.

 

[MnFish1]

I don't know but there are supposed to be over 10,000,000 people in the US along that have fish. I don't know how many are salt water fish, but it's like ETs from space. There are supposed to be billions of planets that could support life so are we the only ones with Supermodels?

You would think that a few of those 10 million people would have a pair of spawning, quarantined fish. In many cases you don't even need a mated pair. Many fish change sex, (some are just cross dressers)

I have spawned, besides stupid clowns, watchman gobies, sea horses, blue stripe pipes, Bangai Cardinals, Striped cardinals, mandarins, Clown Gobies, watchman gobies (I assume one was a Watchgirl) and numerous other fish without even trying. I just put fish in my tank and they spawn.

I know I can't be the only one because if I am, as I said, we should ban this hobby.

All Im trying to ask is 'what is the rationale that QT would affect spawning '? Its unlikely to be 'toxic' (unless copper damages reproduction) - if there was evidence that other antibiotics affected spawning in fish - believe me - they would not be being used in humans.

Besides - I've already given an example that people who breed fish likely have a biosecurity program (ie QT) - so - I just wonder on what basis you are saying what you're saying about spawning and QT

 

[Paul B]

When you say spawn.. do you mean actually raising the eggs to fry stage? Or just the eggs being eaten? Cause I'm sure yours aren't growing up to be fry and raising them like freshwater tanks.

Spawning means just laying eggs, not raising them. I have raised fish in the distant past but it takes a lot of time and room. I don't do that any more but if a fish spawns, it is in the best shape it could be in because it takes an enormous amount of energy and calories for fish to spawn. The eggs are almost all oil and could be a third of the weight of the fish. Quarantined fish can't be fed live or fresh foods because of the bacteria and parasites which the fish may not have any resistance to.
Those foods are the healthiest for fish and when we kept freshwater fish and wanted to raise them, the first thing you would read was to feed live foods.

Mn, as I said, I don't know either but it could be that a quarantined fish has a compromised immune sstem and it is the fishes immune system that prevents it from destroying the eggs due to the fact that part of those eggs contain male fish DNA from a different fish. I am not sure what the fishes immune system would do to quarantined eggs which is why I asked if anyone has quarantined fish (besides clowns) that are spawning.

Remember I am not saying quarantined fish can't spawn. I am saying, I don't know.

Maybe quarantined fish can spawn better!!. But I doubt it.

 

[MnFish1]

Spawning means just laying eggs, not raising them. I have raised fish in the distant past but it takes a lot of time and room. I don't do that any more but if a fish spawns, it is in the best shape it could be in because it takes an enormous amount of energy and calories for fish to spawn. The eggs are almost all oil and could be a third of the weight of the fish. Quarantined fish can't be fed live or fresh foods because of the bacteria and parasites which the fish may not have any resistance to.
Those foods are the healthiest for fish and when we kept freshwater fish and wanted to raise them, the first thing you would read was to feed live foods.

Mn, as I said, I don't know either but it could be that a quarantined fish has a compromised immune sstem and it is the fishes immune system that prevents it from destroying the eggs due to the fact that part of those eggs contain male fish DNA from a different fish. I am not sure what the fishes immune system would do to quarantined eggs which is why I asked if anyone has quarantined fish (besides clowns) that are spawning.

Remember I am not saying quarantined fish can't spawn. I am saying, I don't know.

Maybe quarantined fish can spawn better!!. But I doubt it.

Thanks - My guess (key word) - is that it has to do with feeding. And - I'm not sure that feeding frozen clams, for example - is any better than feeding live clams. Additionally - Live black worms shouldn't have parasites - since they're grown in fresh water.

Again - there is plenty of 'bacteria' in frozen food and the tank itself.

 

[SighKenny]

very interesting read ill need to skim through the comments later

 

[Oldsalt]

What a great thread! Thanks Paul for sharing. It's nearly a year on since I posted in this particular thread and I'm still sitting on zero fish deaths, but I recently had hammer and torch euphyllia melt-down for still unknown reasons. The largest hammer skeleton was pulled out last month. It had been dipped using Seachem reef dip to no avail. I sniffed it the last time I pulled it out and it had an odd smell, but not awfully offensive. I do believe that it had some kind of BJD that was too deep within its large skeleton to detect, or possibly was being eaten from within by unknowns. I've had its skeleton soaking in a weak bleach solution for a while now and when I stuck it in, there were no FW falling off that I could see using a magnifying glass. All my other corals are thriving. All I can think about Euphillia death was flow. So I believed my return pump (DC controlled unbranded that came with the tank) was too weak. I measured output last week to find its struggling to turn over my 1500 litre system (more like 1000 litres excluding LR, substrate, skimmer etc) more than 4 times an hour at 100%. Not good enough for me! So I just ordered a Jebao 20,000 (they got excellent reviews here https://aquariumadviser.com/best-aquarium-return-pumps/), but I'm going to need to add plumbing in (both out and in) order for it to keep up. Lots of work ahead. Hopefully I can succeed with Euphillia after this mini overhaul.

 

[S.Pepper]

What a great thread for a novice and one that doesn't have the ability to have a QT at this point. I haven't started my first SW tank, but soon will, as my aquarium will be delivered this Friday. Hope to have it set-up in the next 2 weeks. I plan on concentrating on corals in the beginning, namely zoanthids, but eventually plan on having fish. I have only read the first couple of pages of this thread, but i'm watching it and plan on reading more.

P.S. LRS is a brand of food?

 

[Feet4Fish]

Yes. LRS stands for Larry’s Reef Services. It is a high quality brand of frozen food

 

[Stigigemla]

I believe excessive cupper medication will make the fish sterile. At least for a few months. In many cases for life.
I quarantine all fish I sell but it is very seldom I medicate. I have had no use for cupper in more than 5 years. Heavy UVC takes all the parasites cupper do.

 

[ShrimpDemolisher]

Sorry to hijack this thread but @Paul B and everyone, do you think pellet foods are bad for water, aside from being sterile? I do feed my fish frozen food as main diet but I still have a bunch of NLS pellets left from freshwater hobby. Not sure what to do with them.

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry to hijack this thread but @Paul B and everyone, do you think pellet foods are bad for water, aside from being sterile? I do feed my fish frozen food as main diet but I still have a bunch of NLS pellets left from freshwater hobby. Not sure what to do with them.

FWIW - no foods are 'sterile'. For exampleI wouldn't tell you to mix your pellet food with sterile water - and then inject into yourself. This 'sterile food' is a myth....

 

[ShrimpDemolisher]

FWIW - no foods are 'sterile'. For exampleI wouldn't tell you to mix your pellet food with sterile water - and then inject into yourself. This 'sterile food' is a myth....

Thank you. But I don't actually care much about it being sterile. I just heard that pellets are bad for water...

 

[Bassmaster116]

I can say at the beginning of this year i lost some fish.... Until i started following this, i couldn’t keep clowns, tangs, or anything other than gobies. I did the QT thing and hospital tank, but i still lost fish.
Since starting this method i haven’t lost a single fish due to disease (lost one clown to my overflow) and it feels amazing. Something so very simple yet i didn’t want to believe it may actually work because its the unpopular method. Anyone who is having issues, just try it.

 

[Subnautica]

I can confirm. Though my tank is only 4 months old (too early to prove). But I haven't lost a single fish due to disease. Only had one jumping out and one didn't make it due to poor shipping. I have over 20 fish including Clowns, yellow tang, cardinal, royal gramma, chromis, butterfly,... HELL even the ANTHIAS and BLUE STAR LEOPARD are doing well.

 

[S.Pepper]

The method would be literally dangerous (for fish bought) for new reefers to read and try and replicate these outcomes with no clear coaching on file. An article would hurt the hobby via temptation unproven, which I hope to prod into being proven for marine cuz it works well in freshwater for sure.

If the article opens, closes and ends with skepticism while showing pictures of pro tanks who pulled it off but never had to account for it in another’s build thread, then I’d read it and not think the article was about to cause the purchase and death of 1500 fish all at once.

Coaching is not Instagram worthy food prep of clams and marine fare. It’s johnny five posting his new 40 gallon nano, all dry materials, first month after cycling completion and he’s asking about fish, then someone asks Johnny if he’d like to have his tank become part of scientific proof ran and consulted virtually by a published book author on reefing

Johnny says yes before we’re even done trying to sell him on participation, makes the link here and example #1 is under way

We get to watch all details, now that’s proof.

I’m still googling affect vs effect lol too late to adjust my graphic

Sorry, I don't have the time to read this whole thread at the moment, but did any new reefers take the bait? It's something I would consider. First and foremost because I will not have a qt tank and would like to give myself the best chance i can at being successful without one.

 

[Stigigemla]

First sweet water foods often contain less fat than food made for saltwater.
It is one thing if an experienced aquarist with 10 or more years of going in and out of LFS dont quarantine.
He will like see more signs of parasites in the shop and not buy fishes in bad condition.

 

[Paul B]

Sorry to hijack this thread but @Paul B and everyone, do you think pellet foods are bad for water, aside from being sterile? I do feed my fish frozen food as main diet but I still have a bunch of NLS pellets left from freshwater hobby. Not sure what to do with them.

All foods are bad for water conditions but they are a necessary evil. We have to feed. I used to use pellets just to make sure food got into my gravel to feed the pods.
I think, (and I am guessing) that there are things in pellet food like preservatives and stuff to make sure it sticks together (binders) that will do nothing to help fish that "may" be detrimental to water conditions. Why add something that is not going to benefit fish?
Just my opinion.

I can confirm. Though my tank is only 4 months old (too early to prove). But I haven't lost a single fish due to disease.

This is great but in itself doesn't mean much. A 4 month old tank will probably have problems no matter what you do and which method you follow. The bacteria, which runs your tank did not stabilize yet as that could take a year or more. The different strains of bacteria are still trying to acquire real estate and are not yet doing for us what we pay them for.

The fishes immune system may also not be up to par yet as they spent some time in transport and dealer's tanks.
I hope your tank runs great and has no diseases for decades. And I of course feel that if you feed as I have mentioned something that the fish were used to eating in the sea along with the living bacteria
(not the bacteria from your hands or from pellets or from your girlfriend sneezing on the food) but natural bacteria "along" with any parasites that fish are supposed to feed, your fish may live forever without ever getting sick as fish were supposed to live. Just keep them as they were kept in the sea.

Good Luck.

PS. Mn, I won't argue with you that all food has bacteria as you know the bacteria I mean

 

[Jase4224]

I can confirm. Though my tank is only 4 months old (too early to prove). But I haven't lost a single fish due to disease. Only had one jumping out and one didn't make it due to poor shipping. I have over 20 fish including Clowns, yellow tang, cardinal, royal gramma, chromis, butterfly,... HELL even the ANTHIAS and BLUE STAR LEOPARD are doing well.

I don’t QT either and my Anthias and Blue star are doing great. Definitely putting on weight and colour is getting nicer too. Only been a few months so wouldn’t claim ‘success’ yet but so far so good.

It’s extremely important to select healthy individuals with correct behaviour.