The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Dkmoo]

not trying to pull this in another direction between the @Paul B @MNFish debate, but i just stumbled across this thread with genuine interest in @Paul B method. I generally subscribe to the idea of "not messing with the tank" and let the organisms do their thing as long as i provide a good environment. However, it seems to me that "replicating nature" require a certain critical mass in terms of tank size and that success has a higher chance the bigger your tank is.

I have a 29G, would you still recommend your approach? I do not QT, or medicate, i feed mysis, but i would be weary of dumping a live rock straight from the ocean or sprinkle ocean sand to my tank. Is that worry unfounded is there a real difference in its applicability depending on tank size?

My tank is 4 years young...

 

[theMeat]

not trying to pull this in another direction between the @Paul B @MNFish debate, but i just stumbled across this thread with genuine interest in @Paul B method. I generally subscribe to the idea of "not messing with the tank" and let the organisms do their thing as long as i provide a good environment. However, it seems to me that "replicating nature" require a certain critical mass in terms of tank size and that success has a higher chance the bigger your tank is.

I have a 29G, would you still recommend your approach? I do not QT, or medicate, i feed mysis, but i would be weary of dumping a live rock straight from the ocean or sprinkle ocean sand to my tank. Is that worry unfounded is there a real difference in its applicability depending on tank size?

My tank is 4 years young...

I don’t want to get in between Paul and mn neither, well maybe a lil, but..,
In a 29 that has adequate sump sump /fuge for minimal water changes. With a low stress for fish situation I would try it on some level. Can’t hurt by feeding live gut as Paul describes. And personally would qt any rock or sand straight out of ocean to see if any crabs or anything else is born from it that may chomp up your corals

 

[HuduVudu]

I have a 20g breeder that is 6 years old. Just dumped several pieces of the Florida rock that I got straight into it. No problems and now I have a very kewl LPS and 2 gorgonians.

 

[KrisReef]

I'm getting ready for the 50-year celebration.

"Keeping a tank is like sailing an expensive Yacht. You don't really want to get any place, you are enjoying the journey, the scenery, the breeze, and gentle water splashing on you, the conversation and wine."

This thread has me wondering; what wine goes with white worms?

 

[HuduVudu]

I'm getting ready for the 50-year celebration.

"Keeping a tank is like sailing an expensive Yacht. You don't really want to get any place, you are enjoying the journey, the scenery, the breeze, and gentle water splashing on you, the conversation and wine."

This thread has me wondering; what wine goes with white worms?

White wine ... of course.

 

[HuduVudu]

I am going to run this one semi-offtopic.

I made a post about an observation that I had about ich on one of my fish. Another person posted and I made response that got me thinking. What if you were to truly remove ich from your tank and something stressed your fish. I think that this is a bad. I think that the stress would trigger a far greater threat to the fishes life. If you are not paying attention this could escalate quickly and would probably be hard to deal with. Ich is easy to deal with once the stressor is gone.

Just a midnight thought.

 

[Paul B]

I have a 29G, would you still recommend your approach? I do not QT, or medicate, i feed mysis, but i would be weary of dumping a live rock straight from the ocean or sprinkle ocean sand to my tank. Is that worry unfounded is there a real difference in its applicability depending on tank size?

Dkmoo, my tank was started in a 40 gallon tank. I started it with ocean water from the East River near Manhattan because thats what I had and I couldn't get ASW. I also used rocks from jetty's in New York. I fed worms and things I could find as there was no salt water food sold at the time. Remember, the hobby didn't even start yet.


That 40 gallon tank had some problems for sure. Ich was everywhere and there was no copper medications because we didn't use that in fresh water. I found a scientist who told me about copper so I got pennies and put them in. I found out from Robert Straughn, (The Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping) to use 20 pennies to the gallon. (pennies are no longer made of copper so don't try this)

My old log book tells of all the problems I had and the medications I used were for humans and didn't work well.



I had a lot of fish then as fish came on the market, I bought them.
LFSs were popping up in the 80s but no one knew what they were doing and I bought all the new fish anyway and experimented until I could figure out what the fish needed. At the time I was also SCUBA diving in the tropics and in New York for lobsters.



Remember this was way before computers cell phones or the internet so there was also no bad information. As far as I knew, I was the only one with a salt tank.
But eventually I figured out what to do and I accidentally started feeding my 7 blue devils live worms that I used to feed to my fresh water tanks of which I think I had 14.



They started to spawn and lived for 7 years. Then I discovered that I didn't need the pennies any more and all my fish were living for many years. Of course I had accidents and lost fish as I barely knew what I was doing and when you do things by trial and error, you will fail more then you win.

Blue devil eggs circa 1972


It took until the early 80s when I think I had it down to a science and stopped losing fish to communicable diseases.
Then much later the internet came out and everyone had an opinion. Thats when the problems started and no one any more experimented, they all asked for opinions. Opinions now are fine but to ask for opinions from people who started the hobby last Tuesday and have kept one damsel for a couple of weeks on life support was not a good idea.

I wrote a few articles in the paper magazines then and like now, people would ask me questions.
(remember, even in those days I still had the oldest tank around)

I would say to feed live worms and clams etc. People would write back and say: Oh thats great, I can't get that so I will feed corn flakes is that OK?..



And thats the way it has always gone.

But getting back to your question of a small tank. For many years I kept a 5 gallon salt tank using NSW and rocks from New York water. Much of it was asphalt, cinder blocks and bricks,


I hatched out these octopus in a small tank.



And kept cool creatures. Most of which I collected in the sea




This was my tank I think in the 80s


Those small 5 gallon tanks using bricks,NSW and local creatures never crashed or had any disease problems. Not once. Don't tell some of the people on here because it would be an argument as they can't grasp having healthy fish by using parasites to control parasites.

Of course none of those people can show their still running tanks from when the hobby started.
Remember us Geezers invented quarantine, copper and medications, that is not a modern thing from the internet. It was because we were un informed and didn't realize that the fish could stay healthy if we stayed out of their way and dealt with diseases the way they have been for millions of years.

 

[Reefahholic]

Gotta love @Paul B

 

[salty joe]

White wine ... of course.

What? Whiskey-bourbon or scotch. Or Irish or Canadian. Or Tennessee.
I will definitely toast the golden anniversary tank! And the wild man that made it happen!

 

[salty joe]

Paul B, I was talking to my brother yesterday who was an avid gardener before he got crippled. He told me he used to have boatloads of redworms in his compost. He did some composting in a bin in his basement.
I'm thinking of doing the same. What do you think of feeding redworms? BTW, thanks for your advice on whiteworms, I have three colonies. I was worried they would stink but they don't.

 

[Joeg]

@Paul B - Love it. Fantastic that you kept those log books~!

Dkmoo, my tank was started in a 40 gallon tank. I started it with ocean water from the East River near Manhattan because thats what I had and I couldn't get ASW. I also used rocks from jetty's in New York. I fed worms and things I could find as there was no salt water food sold at the time. Remember, the hobby didn't even start yet.


That 40 gallon tank had some problems for sure. Ich was everywhere and there was no copper medications because we didn't use that in fresh water. I found a scientist who told me about copper so I got pennies and put them in. I found out from Robert Straughn, (The Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping) to use 20 pennies to the gallon. (pennies are no longer made of copper so don't try this)

My old log book tells of all the problems I had and the medications I used were for humans and didn't work well.



I had a lot of fish then as fish came on the market, I bought them.
LFSs were popping up in the 80s but no one knew what they were doing and I bought all the new fish anyway and experimented until I could figure out what the fish needed. At the time I was also SCUBA diving in the tropics and in New York for lobsters.



Remember this was way before computers cell phones or the internet so there was also no bad information. As far as I knew, I was the only one with a salt tank.
But eventually I figured out what to do and I accidentally started feeding my 7 blue devils live worms that I used to feed to my fresh water tanks of which I think I had 14.



They started to spawn and lived for 7 years. Then I discovered that I didn't need the pennies any more and all my fish were living for many years. Of course I had accidents and lost fish as I barely knew what I was doing and when you do things by trial and error, you will fail more then you win.

Blue devil eggs circa 1972


It took until the early 80s when I think I had it down to a science and stopped losing fish to communicable diseases.
Then much later the internet came out and everyone had an opinion. Thats when the problems started and no one any more experimented, they all asked for opinions. Opinions now are fine but to ask for opinions from people who started the hobby last Tuesday and have kept one damsel for a couple of weeks on life support was not a good idea.

I wrote a few articles in the paper magazines then and like now, people would ask me questions.
(remember, even in those days I still had the oldest tank around)

I would say to feed live worms and clams etc. People would write back and say: Oh thats great, I can't get that so I will feed corn flakes is that OK?..



And thats the way it has always gone.

But getting back to your question of a small tank. For many years I kept a 5 gallon salt tank using NSW and rocks from New York water. Much of it was asphalt, cinder blocks and bricks,


I hatched out these octopus in a small tank.



And kept cool creatures. Most of which I collected in the sea




This was my tank I think in the 80s


Those small 5 gallon tanks using bricks,NSW and local creatures never crashed or had any disease problems. Not once. Don't tell some of the people on here because it would be an argument as they can't grasp having healthy fish by using parasites to control parasites.

Of course none of those people can show their still running tanks from when the hobby started.
Remember us Geezers invented quarantine, copper and medications, that is not a modern thing from the internet. It was because we were un informed and didn't realize that the fish could stay healthy if we stayed out of their way and dealt with diseases the way they have been for millions of years.

 

[Paul B]

Joe, stick with the whiteworms. Those redworms are eating garbage and depending on whats in your garbage, they may not be a good choice. But I am guessing.

Joeg, I have those logs for maybe the 80s and maybe the 90s. I haven't looked at them in many years but I may search through them today to see if I find anything interesting.
I didn't log things every day, only when something happened or I added something.

 

[Paul B]

I am going to run this one semi-offtopic.

I made a post about an observation that I had about ich on one of my fish. Another person posted and I made response that got me thinking. What if you were to truly remove ich from your tank and something stressed your fish. I think that this is a bad. I think that the stress would trigger a far greater threat to the fishes life. If you are not paying attention this could escalate quickly and would probably be hard to deal with. Ich is easy to deal with once the stressor is gone.

Just a midnight thought.

I think it is a bad idea to remove ich from your tank. Those are the tanks that have all the disease problems. They also can't feed fresh or live food, can't use NSW and have to quarantine every wet thing that ever goes into those tanks. Thats why there are no old quarantined tanks.

 

[ca1ore]

not trying to pull this in another direction between the @Paul B @MNFish debate, but i just stumbled across this thread with genuine interest in @Paul B method. I generally subscribe to the idea of "not messing with the tank" and let the organisms do their thing as long as i provide a good environment. However, it seems to me that "replicating nature" require a certain critical mass in terms of tank size and that success has a higher chance the bigger your tank is.

I have a 29G, would you still recommend your approach? I do not QT, or medicate, i feed mysis, but i would be weary of dumping a live rock straight from the ocean or sprinkle ocean sand to my tank. Is that worry unfounded is there a real difference in its applicability depending on tank size?

My tank is 4 years young...

I think, regardless of tank size, expecting to be able to fully replicate the complex natural ecosystems is futile. Some form of regular replenishment is invariably required. Probably doable if you live in Florida, or a coast somewhere, but impractical elsewhere.

Doesn’t mean you cannot get there part of the way, of course. I try to retain as much as I can .... no sand bed stirring or compulsive detritus siphoning chez moi. I do observational QT on all new fish in a separate, small reef tank, but find it rarely necessary for medical intervention.

 

[fishybizzness]

I went down to the shore last weekend and swished around some rocks in the tide pools in a bucket of water to capture whatever came off. I went home and dumped the water and it's contents into my sump. I do this every few months. Dumping in the sump allows me to see and remove any creatures that i may not want in my display. Paul b way of adding diversity!!

 

[fishybizzness]

Btw. That's how the shore looks after a few cat 5 hurricanes a few years earlier.

 

[MnFish1]

Which people? Because I have seen a lot of posts of people struggling to keep fish alive.

I'm not going to go point by point though your discussion - I appreciate your opinion. Except for this one - The impression is clear - from what I've read - that there is a certain 'camp' who believe that QT with medication kills the Fish immune system - and shortens their life - and thus - the impression left is that unless one uses Live foods, ocean mud and sea water, AND if they use medication to QT - that this is basically shortening a fish's life (i.e. killing livestock) - which IF true - would be unethical IMHO. This is what I'm discussing. Just having an aquarium for x length of time to me is not a justification for the other logic IMHO.

@Paul B - you're correct - I don't QT and have healthy fish. So - to a degree that suggests your concepts are correct. But - I also don't use (have access) to natural sea water, I don't feed live foods (I feed mostly high-quality flake foods), and some LRS - and feel I have a good number of healthy disease-free fish. The issue is not whether I'm right and you're wrong (because there is no right/wrong) - its just opinion on both sides

 

[MnFish1]

You obviously didn't read Paul's #23 post about the clown goby he added to his tank with parasites.

You obviously didn't read my many posts - that make it clear - fish can easily survive Ich. Correlation isn't causation.

 

[MnFish1]

Of course none of those people can show their still running tanks from when the hobby started.

I will post a picture (if I can find it) of my tank from 1978 or so. With live rock from Florida. When we moved - the tank had to be taken down. My current tank has some rock thats about 20 years old (I added to it when I got a larger system). I believe the purple tang in my tank is about 10 or so years old. I lost a lot of old coral and fish during a 24 hour power failure that happened when we were on vacation. The point being - lots of people have 'done this a long time' - And, IMHO, the reason people don't have tanks that are 40 years old is not because they are constantly 'failing' - its at least in part due to the fact that things happen - they move, have to stop for a bit due to where they are living, etc. Having a tank or part of a tank - for 40 years is certainly an accomplishment. Not having one - is not an 'indictment' IMHO

 

[Paul B]

Correlation isn't causation.

Maybe not, but after fifty years it kind of alludes to it.