Mulm = detritus
The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)
- Thread starter Paul B
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Paul many forget about the aquascape and its importance in the health of many fish. I tried the new designer minimalist hip (remember hip) cool fashionable reefscape. My fish threatened to send out a linch mob to hang me from my tank lights they were so furious with me.
After four pages the test thread in the new tank forum advising skip fallow and qt method has no work examples, in the fish disease forum nobody is replicating any of this and in fact were warned against it by others who make reproducible work studies. claims from this thread aren’t working in focus threads.
that doesn’t mean ardent followers agree, I’m aware. It means the method cannot be reproduced by the non ardent followers.
skipping fallow and qt is killing thousands of fish, a specific set of steps that works right now in live work threads is available regarding fallow and quarantine.
Moving ocean materials into the home has worked well fully agreed, but for landlocked folks you need a different way.
The fish disease forum has the steps one can take to protect their fish and it’s reproducible in work threads and in large test forums. In no way does that detract from the stature of Pauls reef. It means if anyone attempts to copy it, expect to not. If Picasso described to you how to paint a masterpiece, could you?
that doesn’t mean ardent followers agree, I’m aware. It means the method cannot be reproduced by the non ardent followers.
skipping fallow and qt is killing thousands of fish, a specific set of steps that works right now in live work threads is available regarding fallow and quarantine.
Moving ocean materials into the home has worked well fully agreed, but for landlocked folks you need a different way.
The fish disease forum has the steps one can take to protect their fish and it’s reproducible in work threads and in large test forums. In no way does that detract from the stature of Pauls reef. It means if anyone attempts to copy it, expect to not. If Picasso described to you how to paint a masterpiece, could you?
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Paul B
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Picasso is actually a bad example. Michaelangelo or DiVinci would be better. My Grand Daughter could reproduce some of Picasso't work.
hudu was without a participation boost in the test thread. He earnestly laid down accountability for the claims here but nobody agreed to try.
the skip quarantine skip fallow method itself hasn't been tested in live time work threads so it has not failed, we just were unable to gain any entrants for tracking.
the skip quarantine skip fallow method itself hasn't been tested in live time work threads so it has not failed, we just were unable to gain any entrants for tracking.
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I didn't even know there was a test thread in the new tank forum. I didn't even know there was a "New Tank Forum.
I can't even find it. Where is it?
I can't even find it. Where is it?
There are quite a number if us who don't QT and do similar things to what Paul does if not identical but all based on the same theory.
People have posted on various threads about their success not QTing. Having said that no 2 aquariums are ever the same even methods will vary but IMO its the results that matter when not QTing. Sure there are people who won't QT and suffer fish losses but then there are many of us who don't suffer fish losses to diseases like white spot. So, you have to ask yourself the age old question why.
People have posted on various threads about their success not QTing. Having said that no 2 aquariums are ever the same even methods will vary but IMO its the results that matter when not QTing. Sure there are people who won't QT and suffer fish losses but then there are many of us who don't suffer fish losses to diseases like white spot. So, you have to ask yourself the age old question why.
Paul that’s correct I don’t think we ever linked it, the ref was not even shown the directions to the ballpark admitted play foul ~Nice post in the thread I believe people will see it now and be interested.
People need to be reminded that what works in my tank may not work in yours. An example a friend of mine had a 70 gallon mixed reef. we had a conversation about water changes he asked to see my tank and he added sand to his bare bottom tank and abruptly stopped water changes. when his tank crashed he asked why.
agreed on that fully. I have a friend who runs a very long term pico reef/ where small reefs take on waste and crud much faster than large tanks/ and they don't even have to do a single deep cleaning in 8 years. my own tank wouldn't last more than a year without a nice deep clean, it takes on waste and retains it so differently. I would have thought it was required for all mini reefs but they indeed show it is not.
I just can't reproduce that method in work threads...but for clean running tests, we have logs and logs of participants to verify some as recent as this week in the process.
being able to communicate the ordered steps for any advised action is a big requirement to ushering in change it seems.
I just can't reproduce that method in work threads...but for clean running tests, we have logs and logs of participants to verify some as recent as this week in the process.
being able to communicate the ordered steps for any advised action is a big requirement to ushering in change it seems.
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I think most people feel this s a new concept. My tank was running for 20 years immune like this before they invented computers so I have been dealing with and experimenting all along. To me it is old had and nothing here is new. My tank is not a new concept or new school. Many people ran tanks like I do many years ago.
Many of those people are dead now so we don't hear about them
Many of those people are dead now so we don't hear about them
mijan
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With the exception of the RUGF I have been doing pretty much what Paul has been doing long before I even heard of a Paul B.
The only time I lost fish to disease (ich) was in the very beginning in 1995. But I blame that for not being aware that keeping 3 Tangs in a 55 gallon was not the best course of action. Only the Tangs got sick, most likely from stress.
I never was able to keep my tank going for more then 7 years because of moves. I have moved from Upstate NY to BC Canada and now in South Florida. I have never QT and with the exception of my unfortunate Tangs at the beginning I have never lost a fish to disease. Who knows maybe by year 8 they might all have gotten sick and died, all I do know is when the tank is running they do not get sick. But the idea of poisoning your fish to keep them healthy made no sense to me then and it still makes no sense now.
Fast forward to today. I set up my newest tank on July 19, 2020. I have taken an idea from Paul and I am keeping a journal to better track my tank. I currently am running a 75 gallon. No QT. My fish currently are a Tomini Tang, Royal Gramma, Lawnmower Blenny, and a Percula Clown. I did have a Hi-Fin Goby but he decided to jump. I also have taken another idea from Paul and have used some sand from the ocean. Currently have about a quarter cup in a tupperware container in my sump. Next time I do a water change I might actually use NSW since I have an entire ocean near me.
The only time I lost fish to disease (ich) was in the very beginning in 1995. But I blame that for not being aware that keeping 3 Tangs in a 55 gallon was not the best course of action. Only the Tangs got sick, most likely from stress.
I never was able to keep my tank going for more then 7 years because of moves. I have moved from Upstate NY to BC Canada and now in South Florida. I have never QT and with the exception of my unfortunate Tangs at the beginning I have never lost a fish to disease. Who knows maybe by year 8 they might all have gotten sick and died, all I do know is when the tank is running they do not get sick. But the idea of poisoning your fish to keep them healthy made no sense to me then and it still makes no sense now.
Fast forward to today. I set up my newest tank on July 19, 2020. I have taken an idea from Paul and I am keeping a journal to better track my tank. I currently am running a 75 gallon. No QT. My fish currently are a Tomini Tang, Royal Gramma, Lawnmower Blenny, and a Percula Clown. I did have a Hi-Fin Goby but he decided to jump. I also have taken another idea from Paul and have used some sand from the ocean. Currently have about a quarter cup in a tupperware container in my sump. Next time I do a water change I might actually use NSW since I have an entire ocean near me.
Some people I know won't post about not QTing and yet have a lot of success that way. The reason being they see the abuse and ridicule others get and won't post. Call them closet no QTers if you like.
Paul.has had all manner of near the knuckle posts aimed at him but hes a gazza and dosent really care what the thou must QT brigade think he also has very thick skin and such remarks just bounce off him. I am not sure how he continues to post and reply to the comments and sniping.
Some of us on here support Paul not because we are in his gang but because we have similar philosophies to.how we keep our fish and reefs. Of course I have suffered such on this and UK forums I am on, but hey oh.
We put our ways up because believe it or not they work for us but for everyone one who does so you can bet there are many more who refrain from posting.
Now that might not satisfy the QTers, well that's just a shame and tuff. I have been called everything from Just lucky to irresponsible and mad, I might he a little mad but I am not irresponsible but you can make your own mind up about that. I stand next to my reef with healthy disease free spawning fish and and say to you "tell me what I am doing wrong again"
Paul.has had all manner of near the knuckle posts aimed at him but hes a gazza and dosent really care what the thou must QT brigade think he also has very thick skin and such remarks just bounce off him. I am not sure how he continues to post and reply to the comments and sniping.
Some of us on here support Paul not because we are in his gang but because we have similar philosophies to.how we keep our fish and reefs. Of course I have suffered such on this and UK forums I am on, but hey oh.
We put our ways up because believe it or not they work for us but for everyone one who does so you can bet there are many more who refrain from posting.
Now that might not satisfy the QTers, well that's just a shame and tuff. I have been called everything from Just lucky to irresponsible and mad, I might he a little mad but I am not irresponsible but you can make your own mind up about that. I stand next to my reef with healthy disease free spawning fish and and say to you "tell me what I am doing wrong again"
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Atoll, you are correct I have been hearing this as well as the Russian Roulette thing since RC many years ago when it started. Virtually everyone would argue with me. My tank was only maybe 30 years old so I didn't have to much to prove my theory about. Now it is fifty and they are still talking about that stupid Russian Roulette thing. Maybe because I used to date a Russian girl.
It was almost as bad as the people who argued with me about my nitrate factory reverse undergravel filter. I have quite a few SPS corals and I don't even like SPS corals. The only reason I have any SPS is because so many people told me I couldn't keep them because my tank was to dirty.
Those were the people who couldn't keep fish alive by quarantining, the people who had nitrate problems and the people who couldn't keep SPS corals.
On this site there is a thread now where I posted something about not quarantining and I was ignored. It is fine and as you said, I have thick skin and I could never get upset on a fish forum mainly because I know I am right and so do my fish, especially the 30 year olds who have never been sick.
It is totally amazing that people still believe that in 5 decades I never introduced velvet to my tank. (You know who you are)
How silly does that sound especially when you go on the disease forum and you find 25 tanks with velvet. It is all over these forums, velvet, ick, intestinal worms etc. where do these diseases come from and why do they never want to go in my tank?
I try to give advice but it seems many people just want to have sick fish so they can medicate them
I think I will go eat worms. ;Meh
It was almost as bad as the people who argued with me about my nitrate factory reverse undergravel filter. I have quite a few SPS corals and I don't even like SPS corals. The only reason I have any SPS is because so many people told me I couldn't keep them because my tank was to dirty.
Those were the people who couldn't keep fish alive by quarantining, the people who had nitrate problems and the people who couldn't keep SPS corals.
On this site there is a thread now where I posted something about not quarantining and I was ignored. It is fine and as you said, I have thick skin and I could never get upset on a fish forum mainly because I know I am right and so do my fish, especially the 30 year olds who have never been sick.
It is totally amazing that people still believe that in 5 decades I never introduced velvet to my tank. (You know who you are)
How silly does that sound especially when you go on the disease forum and you find 25 tanks with velvet. It is all over these forums, velvet, ick, intestinal worms etc. where do these diseases come from and why do they never want to go in my tank?
I try to give advice but it seems many people just want to have sick fish so they can medicate them
I think I will go eat worms. ;Meh
The problem as I see it Paul is people cant think out of the box they are enshrined in. Very narrow vision bit like Luke Skywalker in star wars when hes in his x wing fighter trying to hit the button on the death star. He relies solely on the technology but when encouraged to turn it off and trust in the force or whatever it is he fires and hits the bullseye.
For the first few years in this hobby I experienced fish losses mainly through white spot. I gave up flake and other dried foods and went against the advice and bought fresh seafood from the fish market and made my own.
I studied coral fish in the wild on TV as until then I had never dived or snorkeld on a coral reef. Watching those natural history programs convinced me we were keeping our fish all wrong so I set out to replicate as much as possible what I saw on the programme's.
I used lots of live rock to build a reefscape, bought small fish in groups or pairs Caulerpa, goid water flow and so on.
I was laughed at, told it would never work and I was certainly introducing all manner of diseases and putting my animals in grave peril. Well, they couldn't have been more wrong.
Most of those people are no longer in the hobby, why I don't know but I know some gave up admitted defeat after parasites and diseases ravaged their tanks even after QTing everything including the ships cat.
Am still here, your still here Paul and so are a few of my friends who don't ever QT. This is what happens when you do it all wrong I guess. We are happy to keep our reefs all wrong only because we have success doing what we do wrongly or not. You can't argue with success but many do and will continue to do so while we continue to defy the odds....apparently.
For the first few years in this hobby I experienced fish losses mainly through white spot. I gave up flake and other dried foods and went against the advice and bought fresh seafood from the fish market and made my own.
I studied coral fish in the wild on TV as until then I had never dived or snorkeld on a coral reef. Watching those natural history programs convinced me we were keeping our fish all wrong so I set out to replicate as much as possible what I saw on the programme's.
I used lots of live rock to build a reefscape, bought small fish in groups or pairs Caulerpa, goid water flow and so on.
I was laughed at, told it would never work and I was certainly introducing all manner of diseases and putting my animals in grave peril. Well, they couldn't have been more wrong.
Most of those people are no longer in the hobby, why I don't know but I know some gave up admitted defeat after parasites and diseases ravaged their tanks even after QTing everything including the ships cat.
Am still here, your still here Paul and so are a few of my friends who don't ever QT. This is what happens when you do it all wrong I guess. We are happy to keep our reefs all wrong only because we have success doing what we do wrongly or not. You can't argue with success but many do and will continue to do so while we continue to defy the odds....apparently.
GeoSquid
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Question on bacteria: I have some fresh frozen clams. If I slice some of those up thin, put them in a cup with some other frozen blended sea food and tank water and let this sit for a few hours - Do you think the live bacteria from the clams will populate the rest of the food in the cup? I'm trying to maximize my feeding with what I have currently available. I know bacteria can populate pretty quickly under the right conditions.
GeoSquid
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I just did some interesting reading on probiotics in fish aquaculture. PaulB, you were/are definitely ahead of your time! Science is just catching up to you. It seems from the reading we can even add Lactobacillus rhamnosus to fish food. It's a human probiotic you can buy in pill form.
Here is an article with an actual product for fish.
reefhacks.com
Here is an article with an actual product for fish.
New Fish Food Probiotics – Boost the growth of your fish today!
Growth Hack is a unique blend of probiotics specially formulated to enrich your fish food before feeding. For use in both fresh and saltwater aquariums.
reefhacks.com
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You don't have to populate the rest of the food, just feed the clams with the rest of the stuff as long as the clams were fresh and you froze them not a commercial food manufacturer and they were not steamed, irradiated or cooked.
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Paul B
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How about that GeoSquid. I have been saying it for decades and now someone realizes it. Who would have thought?
Quote from her article.
Quote from her article.
Why using Probiotics instead of antibiotics in aquaculture?
That’s right, the use of antibiotics in aquaculture has been known as an effective way of treating, preventing and controlling different diseases associated with marine species. Thousands of tons of antibiotics have been applied in aquaculture. Which indeed helped to keep the disease outbreaks at the minimum, but the method has still been criticized. May I say that my heart breaks every time I find out about new species that are found to be drug-resistant?
GeoSquid
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I'm wondering if there would be any benefit to adding probiotics to white worm culture food? You mentioned feeding yogurt on bread to white worms. Yogurt with live bacteria is a probiotic.
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