The Sheer Number of Supplements on the Market is a Joke. What Happened to Trying to Create a Natural Environment?

[HBtank]

In many cases these supplements are just more cost effective. Salt and proper water is not cheap and neither is drawers and freezers full of quality foods.

Snake oil in a bottle, without being specific, is nothing new.

Also, many people have tried replicating NSW and ended in failure as “clean” water is only part of the picture and inherently devoid of many things the life in our tanks require..

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Who said you get to control how Utah's tank Should be managed?

I have no say in your tank in Thailand and don't want it.

One of the most amazing things about this hobby is the ability for so many people to do it differently, while enjoying varying levels of success..

Go check out the last 6 months worth of reef of the month posts. Most of them write out what they are using/dosing/additives.

I'll guarantee you don't find a single KISS tank in there. At some point water changes just are not enough.

First of all, I made a point previously which I don't believe you understood. It had nothing to do with me exerting control over anyone's methods. I offered my personal opinion on tank management.

In the next line you again imply that I somehow claimed to have a say in how people run their tanks in Utah. Once again, I did not make that claim, I offered an opinion which I am entitled to.

Your next lines I agree with. People can do it however they want and should enjoy it.

I'll just take your word for that next line.

In your final lines you may have missed part of the original post because I definitely stated that some supplements are essential such as those that can't be replenished with water changes eventually.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

You're post is pretty far away from the question posed in the title...Yes, that is how capitalism works. The reason for the existence of supplements wasn't being questioned...

Your question is coming from a flawed premise that yourself and every other person in this hobby plans from the beginning of creating it under a natural environment.

Simply not true. We're trying to maintain very unnatural environments.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Your question is coming from a flawed premise that yourself and every other person in this hobby plans from the beginning of creating it under a natural environment.

Simply not true. We're trying to maintain very unnatural environments.

That is absolutely not what my post states. No, I don't think most people plan to create a natural environment.
This still does not explain why you tried to use capitalism as an explanation...

 

[Spare time]

Are the organisms not natural? If the organisms are in fact natural then they evolved to obtain everything they need to survive in a specific way. It's in their best interest for us to do our best to provide for their needs in those ways (aka naturally).


Give me the benefit of the doubt that I'm not calling fish artificial.


The environment is not natural. Almost no one keeps am environment that actually mimics a section of a reef (i.e. a niche from the same location). It's also impossible.

 

[Spare time]

I believe I actually mentioned that it's not the ocean so it can't be perfectly natural...however with the addition of whole supplement regiments it becomes increasingly artificial (sort of like fast food has become increasingly artificial)

Supplements? That's because things need them and the artifical environment we create in a tank has no mechanism to get these outside of dosing

 

[DavidinGA]

See signature.

 

[Spare time]

Just for example, the dozens of coral supplements some of which add things the corals aren't lacking, carbon dosing supplements composed of proprietary formulas which could be achieved through vodka or simple sugar, some vitamin supplements that are unnecessary if the fish are being fed a diverse diet...

Can you give specific examples. As for food supplements, we don't feed these fish what they eat in the wild, so it can be helpful. Dietary ecology is complex.

 

[HBtank]

First of all, I made a point previously which I don't believe you understood. It had nothing to do with me exerting control over anyone's methods. I offered my personal opinion on tank management.

In the next line you again imply that I somehow claimed to have a say in how people run their tanks in Utah. Once again, I did not make that claim, I offered an opinion which I am entitled to.

Your next lines I agree with. People can do it however they want and should enjoy it.

I'll just take your word for that next line.

In your final lines you may have missed part of the original post because I definitely stated that some supplements are essential such as those that can't be replenished with water changes eventually.

All I can pull from your posts is that vitamin supplements are bad, you seem to be OK with the rest?

Regarding food, thinking that some magical blend of DIY food is any more natural in replicating the fauna and micro fauna for a range of different reef inhabitants, versus a bottle of amino acids or vitamins, just seems like a false premise. Both are attempts at replicating food sources they can use, neither truly “natural”. This feels similar to the perception of “organic” food labeling for humans.

 

[mindme]

I was just thinking earlier about the ridiculous number of supplements and additives which are a huge part of the hobby nowadays. Not only are a lot of them essentially snake oil, many are ridiculously expensive as well! I'm not saying that there's no place for some supplements as some actually are essential such as calcium, magnesium, and alk along with a few others in the hobby but it seems to have gotten way out of hand. It seems that it would be much better to maintain a tank in as natural a manner as possible. Why not get back to the basics of establishing a new tank with some quality live rock and instead of soaking your fish food in vitamin supplements feeding them a much more natural diet which would supply them with the vitamins and minerals they need naturally? With the exception of bacterial additives (and some of them are unnecessary as well) it almost seems like we're trying to support creatures from some other planet sometimes. I simply feel that the most natural way is the best choice often for both the animals and your wallet.

I'm trying to think of anything I'm dosing into my tank that isn't natural and I'm coming up blank. And it's not because I do not dose much. I dose like 8 things manually daily, and that's not counting alk/cal on my dosing pump.

I do soak my food in selcon, but I'm not sure what you are talking about honestly.

My daily dosing schedule:

DIY NoPox: 25ml
Iodide: 18 drops
Manganese: 1.4 ml
Chromium: 0.28 ml
Cobalt: 0.28 ml
Iron: 0.14 ml
Rubidium: 0.79 ml
Mud: 2 ml

Is any of that snake oil or not natural?

I also dosed 20 ml of calcium carbonate last night. And then if you talk monthly there are another 5 or 6 elements I dose as well.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I use Red Sea AB+ as a source of complex organic carbons to supplement what I can't add enough of by even heavy feeding of the fish. Many do something like this, but may choose another company's product. I also use DIY solutions as needed to supplement ammonia, nitrate, phosphate, calcium, alkalinity, iron, iodine, and magnesium. Many are not comfortable making those solutions so they buy them from companies they like. While I imagine the companies make an almost criminal margin on these overly dilute products, nobody is holding a gun to their customers' heads.

I am not a big fan of prolonged carbon dosing now, but I did once, and would again if I though there was a need. I used a straight vinegar or a DIY solution of vodka and vinegar rather than supposedly magic commercial carbon dosing products. However, if people want to pay more for much the same thing, who am I to quibble with their decision.
I'll agree that many products are at best over-hyped, purposely mislabeled, and/or of little value. Hobbyists are starting to out them on public forums about their false claims, but unfortunately it's still a try it and learn environment. We've all bought something and found it to be, well... sucky. We learned, accepted the consequences, fixed the damage, and move on.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'm trying to think of anything I'm dosing into my tank that isn't natural and I'm coming up blank. And it's not because I do not dose much. I dose like 8 things manually daily, and that's not counting alk/cal on my dosing pump.

I do soak my food in selcon, but I'm not sure what you are talking about honestly.

My daily dosing schedule:

DIY NoPox: 25ml
Iodide: 18 drops
Manganese: 1.4 ml
Chromium: 0.28 ml
Cobalt: 0.28 ml
Iron: 0.14 ml
Rubidium: 0.79 ml
Mud: 2 ml

Is any of that snake oil or not natural?

I also dosed 20 ml of calcium carbonate last night. And then if you talk monthly there are another 5 or 6 elements I dose as well.

First of all, some of those may or may not be snake oil essentially if you were to analyze its composition.
NEXT PLEASE READ EXACTLY WHAT I WROTE IN MY POST. YOU CLEARLY MISSED IT.
I'm not saying that there's no place for some supplements as some actually are essential such as calcium, magnesium, and alk along with a few others in the hobby.
And thank you for pointing out that they happen to be natural! My entire thread is advocating for a natural approach.

 

[\m/reefsnmetal\m/]

All I can pull from your posts is that vitamin supplements are bad, you seem to be OK with the rest?

Regarding food, thinking that some magical blend of DIY food is any more natural in replicating the fauna and micro fauna for a range of different reef inhabitants, versus a bottle of amino acids or vitamins, just seems like a false premise. Both are attempts at replicating food sources they can use, neither truly “natural”. This feels similar to the perception of “organic” food labeling for humans.

Dude I was just about to point that out! Natural as a term is just as useless as organic, healthy, and scientific.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

All I can pull from your posts is that vitamin supplements are bad, you seem to be OK with the rest?

Regarding food, thinking that some magical blend of DIY food is any more natural in replicating the fauna and micro fauna for a range of different reef inhabitants, versus a bottle of amino acids or vitamins, just seems like a false premise. Both are attempts at replicating food sources they can use, neither truly “natural”. This feels similar to the perception of “organic” food labeling for humans.

Vitamin supplements aren't bad. I never said that. They are commonly used however, to add vitamins to foods which are not suitable for many fish. Simply adding a vitamin additive does not magically make food healthy or ensure it's meeting the needs of the organism because nutrient absorption is a complex process. Live foods, many of which are readily available and can be found in the natural habitat of the organism are much more likely to meet nutritional requirements.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Dude I was just about to point that out! Natural as a term is just as useless as organic, healthy, and scientific.

Please be civil and allow me to respond to the other commenters. I also highly doubt you know much about those terms in reality. Go ahead and get on Google or grab a dictionary to be sure you're correct while I'm answering others' posts.

 

[G Santana]

Buy what you need and what works for your tank, everything else you let sit on the shelf. Problem solved.

 

[mindme]

First of all, some of those may or may not be snake oil essentially if you were to analyze its composition.
NEXT PLEASE READ EXACTLY WHAT I WROTE IN MY POST. YOU CLEARLY MISSED IT.
I'm not saying that there's no place for some supplements as some actually are essential such as calcium, magnesium, and alk along with a few others in the hobby.
And thank you for pointing out that they happen to be natural! My entire thread is advocating for a natural approach.

I'm confused because you keep saying vitamins are added to food that isn't otherwise acceptable and yet many people feed the same things I feed(a variety of frozen foods and nori) even without the selcon and do fine.

I don't do it to get to what is needed, I do it to go beyond what is needed.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

@Spare time I know you're not referring to fish as artificial... but if fish are naturally evolved organisms then they evolved to obtain everything they need to survive in a specific way. It's in their best interest for us to do our best to provide for their needs in those ways (aka naturally). It isn't fully possible to do that in all cases I understand but using as natural approach as possible would likely be healthier for the fish than a less natural approach.

 

[Spare time]

Vitamin supplements aren't bad. I never said that. They are commonly used however, to add vitamins to foods which are not suitable for many fish. Simply adding a vitamin additive does not magically make food healthy or ensure it's meeting the needs of the organism because nutrient absorption is a complex process. Live foods, many of which are readily available and can be found in the natural habitat of the organism are much more likely to meet nutritional requirements.

A food being live doesn't really make a difference and the EXACT things that these fish eat in their wild environment are not common if not impossible or extremely difficult to get.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I'm confused because you keep saying vitamins are added to food that isn't otherwise acceptable and yet many people feed the same things I feed(a variety of frozen foods and nori) even without the selcon and do fine.

I don't do it to get to what is needed, I do it to go beyond what is needed.

I think thats a great food source actually!