Theory on nutrient ratios and algae/bacteria

[saltyfilmfolks]

This is where we disagree. If nitrogen and phosphorus weren't causing cyano/dino blooms we wouldn't worry about fertilizer run off so much.

Cyano will form on rotting food. Jus Sayin.

Phosphates are also used in coral dips in concentration.

So the spot I have cyano is at the bottom of the flow curl. It drops particulates there. Should I Change the flow or dose n or p?

 

[Lasse]

So if we are agreeing that competition for available resources are the driving factor for what thrives in the aquarium, then how did the Swedish explain the lakes with higher NO3, so presumably more resource, had less cyano? Are you suggesting they coincidentally ran out of another resource?
not an argument, just a question to understand the logic.

They found some complicated biological and biochemical processes in the lakes with NO3 concentrations > 2 ppm. The lakes in the study had a stagnate bottom layer of anoxic water and proposed leakage of phosphorus from the sediment. The cyanobacteria in question migrate up and down in the water – during night-time they was down in the stagnate water – and the sediment – picking up phosphorus from the bottom, store it and consume it during daytime. The nitrogen – they fix by them self. Its important to stress that during the bloom PO4 levels in the water column was zero.

How come the 2 ppm NO3 into the process? In the sediment – there is a lot of phosphors blocked by metal/phosphorus complex. To release them and break the bounding – two things is needed – anaerobic conditions and forming of hydrogen sulphide. The sediment in both types of lakes – no NO3 in the water and with NO3 in the water column was anaerobic but hydrogen sulphide production did not occur in the lakes with > 2 ppm NO3. This is a well-known fact that NO3 in the water hinder the production of hydrogen sulphide. This is the reason why I never will let my NO3 level be zero in my aquarium. In the lakes with NO3 levels > 2 ppm – the migrating cyanobacteria could not get any phosphorus from the sediment because it was still blocked by metals.

This type of Cyanobacteria is able by themselves to produce the ammonia they need through fixating N2 dissolved in the water – they do not need any inorganic nitrogen species in the water – but they need phosphorus. It was zero in the water but in some lakes – they could get the needed phosphorus from the sediment - in the others, with NO3 levels > 2 ppm, - there was no phosphorus coming up from the sediment.

This is important in our aquaria – especially if you have a DSB or other construction that can be anaerobic. NO3 can control the release of phosphorus that is bound in gravel and other places. Without NO3 in the water – hydrogen sulphide will be produced during anaerobic conditions – hydrogen sulphide breaks the bonds between metals and phosphorus and phosphorus will be released to the water column as PO4. Once again – with this in – do not let GFO be in bags for passive uptake – use chambers with a flow of oxygen rich water.



Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

Cyano will form on rotting food. Jus Sayin.

Phosphates are also used in coral dips in concentration.

So the spot I have cyano is at the bottom of the flow curl. It drops particulates there. Should I Change the flow or dose n or p?

Since it isn't a tank wide problem I would change flow. The problem would obviously not be related to water parameters.
You have a localized N problem, which is nothing like an NO3 issue in your water.

 

[rkpetersen]

Well, I've read through this interesting thread but I don't feel much better informed on the subject than before. I lean towards the 'limitation' rather than the 'balance' hypotheses, but I also believe that the causes of individual outbreaks are multifactorial with far more complexity than we are able to accurately compare between systems. We try to create rules and solid guidelines from anecdotal and empirical observations, but these rarely generalize well to all hobbyists. And unfortunately, true scientific studies are rarely done on captive reefs.

 

[Lasse]

I´m rather sure that the benthic cyanobacteria we have in our aquariums create anaerobic conditions below the mat. During these conditions they can co work with anaerobic nitrogen fixating bacteria for ammonium production an also take advantages of hydrogen sulphide production from other bacteria and hence get phosphorus from the sediment/substrate. They will be total self-sufficient according to N and P (and probably trace metals also). With a NO3 level around 2 and over – you will make it more difficult for bacteria to produce hydrogen sulfide and hence make it more difficult for the cyanobacteria to get phosphorus from the substrate

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Since it isn't a tank wide problem I would change flow. The problem would obviously not be related to water parameters.
You have a localized N problem, which is nothing like an NO3 issue in your water.

According to benthic cyanobacteria I disagree with you. In my little world – its all about NO3 – not N. But NO3´s roll is not the one we think – it has a more complicated function as I try to say (and show)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

According to benthic cyanobacteria I disagree with you. In my little world – its all about NO3 – not N. But NO3´s roll is not the one we think – it has a more complicated function as I try to say (and show)

Sincerely Lasse

I agree with you in concept but not in application for the question posed. In the case of cyanobacteria growing on detritus in a low flow area, the bacteria would not need to rely on the substrate to provide phosphorus. It could obtain phosphorus directly from the decay of the detritus without relying on hydrogen sulfide.

 

[Lasse]

Cyano will form on rotting food. Jus Sayin

I´m not sure that it will be formed of this - but if the mats will be constructed over surplus food - surplus food will speed up the process of anaerobic conditions below the mat. Better flow - disturb the mat forming, lot of herimts and other benthic animals disturb the mats - they cant form this anaerobic conditions that the cyanobacteria need for its bloom. its all a question of disturbing the mats and with maintaining of NO3 levels make it more difficult to form hydrogen sulphide.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Since it isn't a tank wide problem I would change flow. The problem would obviously not be related to water parameters.
You have a localized N problem, which is nothing like an NO3 issue in your water.

Or is it feeding of off the ammoina and co2?

Now in the case of a very new tank , and we just started solid foods and fish , we now have spread the same dissolved organics (dusting it ) all over the tank so the prob would then appear systemic.
Thus my insistence is not a good diagnostic tool and should be largely ignored unless specificity identified.


Here's an interesting case study for you. The member has been working quite hard to subscribe to the N/p balance thingy.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reeferfoxxs-jbj-30.317132/

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I´m not sure that it will be formed of this - but if the mats will be constructed over surplus food - surplus food will speed up the process of anaerobic conditions below the mat. Better flow - disturb the mat forming, lot of herimts and other benthic animals disturb the mats - they cant form this anaerobic conditions that the cyanobacteria need for its bloom. its all a question of disturbing the mats and with maintaining of NO3 levels make it more difficult to form hydrogen sulphide.

Sincerely Lasse

I have no to little cyano in the tank.
It only Forms in that spot.
I have plenty of n/p available.

I have no cyano in the tank. If I use two little fishers marine snow or LRS foods. I get cyano.

So I should dose n/p?

 

[Brew12]

Or is it feeding of off the ammoina and co2?

This is my guess. Which is why I say it is an N issue, not an NO3 issue. In this case, the N would be from the NH3/NH4.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is my guess. Which is why I say it is an N issue, not an NO3 issue. In this case, the N would be from the NH3/NH4.

I would love to know how much of the ammonia released from organisms such as fish in a typical reef tank gets used as ammonia, and how much makes its way to nitrate and is then used.

 

[Lasse]

According to the benthic cyanobacteria we are dealing with - maybe some experiences from fresh water may explain this. In the Swedish study I have referred to before the author put the question:

(I have translated the Swedish text with help of Google – I hope you understand it anyhow – it´s in Googlish with other words

“Why can gel-producing cyanobacteria without heterocytes dominate at the lowest nitrogen levels?”

They answer:

Cyanobacteria can secretate extracellular polymeric substances (EPS) consisting mainly of polysaccharides. The cyanobacteria can produce polysaccharide envelopes surrounding the entire cell or colony. Nitrogen deficiency is a well-known factor that stimulates the secretion of jelly (Stal 2000). In the absence of nitrogen, protein synthesis stagnates while photosynthesis can continue. Under such conditions, the cyanobacteria accumulate large amounts of glycogen (Allen& Smith 1969; Lehman & Wöber 1976). The cell's capacity to store glycogen is limited and excess carbohydrates are secreted as jelly.

After this – they have a long discussion how they can get nitrogen beyond the mats, but I only translate this first thing about what trigger the build up of the mats. These cyanobacteria – we always have in our water, but they say clearly that the trigger for the forming of the mats is low nitrogen levels.

The conclusion that I make is that during normal conditions with some nitrogen in the water these cyanobacteria (including spirulina) will stay as own individuals but in low inorganic nitrogen levels (low in NH4/N3, NO2, NO3 and NOx) they start to form mats and fix their own resources

If you are interested of this things – copy the Swedish text and run it through Google (Chap 8:3) – you will get some good information


Sincerely Lasse

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

According to the benthic cyanobacteria we are dealing with - maybe some experiences from fresh water may explain this. In the Swedish study I have referred to before the author put the question:

(I have translated the Swedish text with help of Google – I hope you understand it anyhow – it´s in Googlish with other words



They answer:


After this – they have a long discussion how they can get nitrogen beyond the mats, but I only translate this first thing about what trigger the build up of the mats. These cyanobacteria – we always have in our water, but they say clearly that the trigger for the forming of the mats is low nitrogen levels.

The conclusion that I make is that during normal conditions with some nitrogen in the water these cyanobacteria (including spirulina) will stay as own individuals but in low inorganic nitrogen levels (low in NH4/N3, NO2, NO3 and NOx) they start to form mats and fix their own resources

If you are interested of this things – copy the Swedish text and run it through Google (Chap 8:3) – you will get some good information


Sincerely Lasse

How would that explain then the 6cm spot in my tank? And what to do a about it? For the common average reefer that is. I'm actually pretty familiar


I know my standard answers. Thus the difficulty in promoting n/p balance (catch phrase and Fas) as a consideration in most typical cases.
Even in most uncommon cases the cures are generally similar.

Not surprisingly , it's all in the common reccomeddions in husbandry we all hear getting into the hobby.

 

[Lasse]

I would love to know how much of the ammonia released from organisms such as fish in a typical reef tank gets used as ammonia, and how much makes its way to nitrate and is then used.

In my experiences - it depends on how the system is constructed.

At least in Sweden - it’s very popular to run the reef tanks without any special biological nitrification filter – hence the nitrification rate is low. In these cases – I think its important to have a rather high pH and a good skimmer. The skimmer will aerate out NH3 and hence lower the NH3/NH4 complex.

In my constructions I always want to have a dedicated nitrification filter because I want to have the NH3/NH4 concentration as low as possible. In fresh water its known that nuisance algae love the NO3/NO4 as a nitrogen source. As an example - the nitrogen sources below the mats of the benthic cyanobacteria is NH3/NH4 produced by anaerobic bacteria

The source of NH3/NH4 in an established aquarium is mostly fishes and bacteria activity. Most fish start to excrete NH4/NH3 as fast as they can after feeding – the bacteria excrete NH4/NH3 in a constant rate. I think that NH4/NH3 is the preferred nitrogen source for macro algae also and therefore I always feed my fishes late in the evening when my fuge light has started (if it means anything – I do not know – but it feels good to do that way)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[chefjpaul]

How would that explain then the 6cm spot in my tank? And what to do a about it? For the common average reefer that is. I'm actually pretty familiar

Definitely remove all the sand, dose h2o2 and a cup of bleach per gallon, turn off the lights for 23 days and blow bubbles with a curvy straw, (i highly recomend green), while singing buddy guys "I've got the blues" in a chipmunk voice. They'll go away on the 24th day at 3:56 am.

J/K - great discussion you guys.

 

[Lasse]

How would that explain then the 6cm spot in my tank? And what to do a about it? For the common average reefer that is. I'm actually pretty familiar.

What´s your average NO3 level ?

The reason for it i do not know but it can be that way that the conditions in your tank trigger the jelly production but this is the only place the cyanobacteria is able to settle, create anaerobic conditions, get light and be undisturbed. What to do about it? I would disturb the spot as much as possible - suck it up every evening if possible or place something over it so it does not get any light. And maintain at least 2 ppm as NO3

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ksed]

Wow!This is where everyone is hiding

 

[Lasse]

Definitely remove all the sand, dose h2o2 and a cup of bleach per gallon, turn off the lights for 23 days and blow bubbles with a curvy straw, (i highly recomend green), while singing buddy guys "I've got the blues" in a chipmunk voice. They'll go away on the 24th day at 3:56 am.

J/K - great discussion you guys.

You forgot the war dance

Sincerely Lasse

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Definitely remove all the sand, dose h2o2 and a cup of bleach per gallon, turn off the lights for 23 days and blow bubbles with a curvy straw, (i highly recomend green), while singing buddy guys "I've got the blues" in a chipmunk voice. They'll go away on the 24th day at 3:56 am.

J/K - great discussion you guys.

What´s your average NO3 level ?

The reason for it i do not know but it can be that way that the conditions in your tank trigger the jelly production but this is the only place the cyanobacteria is able to settle, create anaerobic conditions, get light and be undisturbed. What to do about it? I would disturb the spot as much as possible - suck it up every evening if possible or place something over it so it does not get any light. And maintain at least 2 ppm as NO3

Sincerely Lasse

You forgot the war dance

Sincerely Lasse

I went with buddy guy and the war dance. It goes away on its own.

Well, I do use the turkey baster and do a water change every other week. Sometimes.


Actually I hardly ever get cyano. If it do I usually know why. She likes to feed the fish.