Think twice before you go big

[Aggro]

While I get that a larger tank costs more in every way, I think the main point that I take away from your cautionary tale is that when you start to do home improvements to fit a tank, costs can skyrocket.

You could have been fine at $15K for a large tank. But once you start to knock down walls and installing floor drains, you can always open up a can o worms, just like any home remodel.

I agree and that’s exactly what I got out of it as we

I've been in this hobby and reading about reefkeeping for many years. I repeatedly see threads on "what would you do if you could start over?" A common answer is "I would set up a larger system." I want to push back on that.

There is so much pressure to go big and so many reasons why big tanks make sense. Many people's progressions in the hobby look like mine. I started with 10g freshwater, then 20g, then 38g reef, then 75g reef, and now planning a 240g reef (this is all over more than 25 years, so I'm not talking about impulsive upgrading behavior). Each time I wanted more stability, more aquascaping possibilities, more stocking options, and more to see. So now I'm about 18 months into *planning* a large system (see my build thread) and I'm having some regrets before I've even put any water in the tank. With larger tanks, everything gets more expensive, and I mean really expensive. Larger tank, more rock, more sand, bigger light fixture with more lights, larger wavemakers, bigger sump, bigger return pumps, more salt, more electricity, more water.

But I want to share a cautionary tale about how my dream reef tank, original budget of around $15K, is now going to cost more than a sports car. I am doing a fish room with an in-wall display, so I had to open the walls. The architect said the wall was not load-bearing -- good news! Then two weeks into construction they went "oops, we were wrong, it's holding up two levels of the house." No problem, add $2500 for some new supports added out wide to replace the one we removed for where the display tank sits. Should be fine, but let's have a structural engineer review just in case. That will only cost $500 or so. Then, as we're digging a trench in the slab for a floor drain (an absolute requirement), we got another nasty surprise. The basement slabs in my neighborhood (homes are all about 100 years old) are about 3" to 6" thick instead of 12" to 18". So we need to tear up half the basement slab, excavate, and pour new concrete footings for the tank and for the vertical beams supporting the house. Another $10K. I suppose we might have wanted a thicker slab anyway, but the house would have had at least another 50 years before it was a problem.

So I'm about to approve that change order to the construction contract, but seriously thought about whether I could sell the custom tank that's been sitting in the garage and downsize to something that won't break my house. Too late, I guess, since we already moved the supports and I've already accumulated all the equipment that goes with this particular tank. Fortunately I can absorb these costs and still pay for my kids' college and our retirement, maybe have a skip a couple of vacations. But the lesson learned (which I hope to share) is that if you are a normal person who has not been lucky to have investments go well and save for 20+ years, then try to make the most of that 20 gallon, or 55 gallon or whatever tank or even a nano, and take it as a challenge on how to create something beautiful in a small box and how to keep it stable. We need to celebrate nanos and "regular" size tanks and reef-keepers who maintain them and not feel or create pressure to upgrade. Yes, we'll always drool over the ocean-sized tanks online with armies of tangs swimming busily and peacefully over an expanse of mature coral reefs, but think twice before you go big.

i understand that being a very hard pill to swallow especially after you have people review plans and they say it’s good then you find out it not.
Although I am baffled about the slab thickness. I don’t know where you’re at but 4” slabs are standard for us in Washington whether it be garage or basement. Only thing I can think of is they did a monolithic slab for you but even then you would only have thickened areas where your footings were not the whole thing. And if your whole slab is only 3-6” well someone messed up. I hope everything from here out goes smooth as butter for you.

 

[Tankkeepers]

Just so everyone knows the rating at least in the building code for indiana is not dead weight as that is diffrent and you also have to account for the houses weight in that area and psi rating does not nessisarly mean you can put that amount of dead weight on each square inch if you put 2000 lbs on 1 inch of concreat with a psi of 3000 you will crack it also you need to find out what the dirt underneath is rated for the concrete might be able to handle the weight but if the dirt under it cannot it will settle bow and crack

 

[AC1211]

I had a 90g freshwater for years and wanted to set up a small easy nano such as a biocube on the other side of the tv. I knew I would do well with fish and what I wanted was a pair of clowns and a small goby and maybe a few easy inverts or something. Instead my parents talked me into a 60g with radions and mp 10 vortechs. This was a bad call but I am doing well with fish and since I have failed with corals in this system due to a diamond watchman goby that puts sand on the high rocks too and buries everything and a coral beauty that eats corals. I am content with the tank and love my 15 fish (most will be moved out soon most were temporary.) Had I instead started with a smaller tank I would have been much more comfortable as a 60g and a 90g freshwater take up quite a bit of time. Plus I have many other hobbies and am currently a senior in HS so I may have to take both tanks down soon anyway as I may go away for college. All in all go small when you have a lot to do in life.

 

[rusty hannon]

I've been in this hobby and reading about reefkeeping for many years. I repeatedly see threads on "what would you do if you could start over?" A common answer is "I would set up a larger system." I want to push back on that.

There is so much pressure to go big and so many reasons why big tanks make sense. Many people's progressions in the hobby look like mine. I started with 10g freshwater, then 20g, then 38g reef, then 75g reef, and now planning a 240g reef (this is all over more than 25 years, so I'm not talking about impulsive upgrading behavior). Each time I wanted more stability, more aquascaping possibilities, more stocking options, and more to see. So now I'm about 18 months into *planning* a large system (see my build thread) and I'm having some regrets before I've even put any water in the tank. With larger tanks, everything gets more expensive, and I mean really expensive. Larger tank, more rock, more sand, bigger light fixture with more lights, larger wavemakers, bigger sump, bigger return pumps, more salt, more electricity, more water.

But I want to share a cautionary tale about how my dream reef tank, original budget of around $15K, is now going to cost more than a sports car. I am doing a fish room with an in-wall display, so I had to open the walls. The architect said the wall was not load-bearing -- good news! Then two weeks into construction they went "oops, we were wrong, it's holding up two levels of the house." No problem, add $2500 for some new supports added out wide to replace the one we removed for where the display tank sits. Should be fine, but let's have a structural engineer review just in case. That will only cost $500 or so. Then, as we're digging a trench in the slab for a floor drain (an absolute requirement), we got another nasty surprise. The basement slabs in my neighborhood (homes are all about 100 years old) are about 3" to 6" thick instead of 12" to 18". So we need to tear up half the basement slab, excavate, and pour new concrete footings for the tank and for the vertical beams supporting the house. Another $10K. I suppose we might have wanted a thicker slab anyway, but the house would have had at least another 50 years before it was a problem.

So I'm about to approve that change order to the construction contract, but seriously thought about whether I could sell the custom tank that's been sitting in the garage and downsize to something that won't break my house. Too late, I guess, since we already moved the supports and I've already accumulated all the equipment that goes with this particular tank. Fortunately I can absorb these costs and still pay for my kids' college and our retirement, maybe have a skip a couple of vacations. But the lesson learned (which I hope to share) is that if you are a normal person who has not been lucky to have investments go well and save for 20+ years, then try to make the most of that 20 gallon, or 55 gallon or whatever tank or even a nano, and take it as a challenge on how to create something beautiful in a small box and how to keep it stable. We need to celebrate nanos and "regular" size tanks and reef-keepers who maintain them and not feel or create pressure to upgrade. Yes, we'll always drool over the ocean-sized tanks online with armies of tangs swimming busily and peacefully over an expanse of mature coral reefs, but think twice before you go big.

Very well put sir, hope the rest of you're journey is peaceful and without problems. Can't wait to see this one done

 

[NarvaezM]

Great post.
Tank size does not matter as long as it is enjoyed
I always kept my tanks 125 or less until my current tank
The new 600g was well planned. As we built the house we planned for the tank before any construction was done.

Thats what i plan to do, build my house around it, i still cant decide whether the sump room will be next to the tank or bottom floor!!?? But i do want the tank in the center of the living space with no noise or visible equipment besides lights... so i guess i will have to plan really good

 

[Michael Gray]

I think shallow tanks are under-appreciated. If you have the floor space, then long and wide make a more interesting reef, and easier to light, no need to penetrate 2' of water.

interestings.. how shallow we talking?

 

[AchilesTang]

I've been in this hobby and reading about reefkeeping for many years. I repeatedly see threads on "what would you do if you could start over?" A common answer is "I would set up a larger system." I want to push back on that.

There is so much pressure to go big and so many reasons why big tanks make sense. Many people's progressions in the hobby look like mine. I started with 10g freshwater, then 20g, then 38g reef, then 75g reef, and now planning a 240g reef (this is all over more than 25 years, so I'm not talking about impulsive upgrading behavior). Each time I wanted more stability, more aquascaping possibilities, more stocking options, and more to see. So now I'm about 18 months into *planning* a large system (see my build thread) and I'm having some regrets before I've even put any water in the tank. With larger tanks, everything gets more expensive, and I mean really expensive. Larger tank, more rock, more sand, bigger light fixture with more lights, larger wavemakers, bigger sump, bigger return pumps, more salt, more electricity, more water.

But I want to share a cautionary tale about how my dream reef tank, original budget of around $15K, is now going to cost more than a sports car. I am doing a fish room with an in-wall display, so I had to open the walls. The architect said the wall was not load-bearing -- good news! Then two weeks into construction they went "oops, we were wrong, it's holding up two levels of the house." No problem, add $2500 for some new supports added out wide to replace the one we removed for where the display tank sits. Should be fine, but let's have a structural engineer review just in case. That will only cost $500 or so. Then, as we're digging a trench in the slab for a floor drain (an absolute requirement), we got another nasty surprise. The basement slabs in my neighborhood (homes are all about 100 years old) are about 3" to 6" thick instead of 12" to 18". So we need to tear up half the basement slab, excavate, and pour new concrete footings for the tank and for the vertical beams supporting the house. Another $10K. I suppose we might have wanted a thicker slab anyway, but the house would have had at least another 50 years before it was a problem.

So I'm about to approve that change order to the construction contract, but seriously thought about whether I could sell the custom tank that's been sitting in the garage and downsize to something that won't break my house. Too late, I guess, since we already moved the supports and I've already accumulated all the equipment that goes with this particular tank. Fortunately I can absorb these costs and still pay for my kids' college and our retirement, maybe have a skip a couple of vacations. But the lesson learned (which I hope to share) is that if you are a normal person who has not been lucky to have investments go well and save for 20+ years, then try to make the most of that 20 gallon, or 55 gallon or whatever tank or even a nano, and take it as a challenge on how to create something beautiful in a small box and how to keep it stable. We need to celebrate nanos and "regular" size tanks and reef-keepers who maintain them and not feel or create pressure to upgrade. Yes, we'll always drool over the ocean-sized tanks online with armies of tangs swimming busily and peacefully over an expanse of mature coral reefs, but think twice before you go big.

I moved to a 400 gallon tank but, only because I had a new house with a spot perfect for it without remodeling. I also got the tank with all the equipment to run it at a steal. Have plans to slowly upgrade the equipment but, can do it at my pace. If the right deal comes up it is possible but, still be prepared to expect maintenance cost to go up exponentially.

 

[BobT]

There is such a thing as 'right size'.

I own my dream tank. It's 60" x 30" x 18", about 140 gallons. Low and fat, easy to maintain, no need to work from a ladder, or from my knees... 'sump room' is just a closet, but it's functional. Everything that can be automated... is.

I look at these huge tanks, and just wonder what cleaning is like. What, you gotta wear a scuba tank? You go right ahead... I don't want to get my sleeves wet... much less my beard.

Love the tank!

 

[Cabinetman]

That's great! Share your secrets.

One factor may be that I am not very handy, despite my best intentions to learn, so I end up hiring help for a lot of stuff that reefers with more DIY skills do themselves.

Ya. I built everything myself including the acrylic tank. Bought pretty much all the gear used too and just bought out tank shut downs to fill it with rock and livestock. The only real problem I’ve encountered is the rock leaching phosphate but I’ve got a handle on it.. the tank is 120”x39”x29”
I don’t do water changes either and the tank and stand are closed in so my heater really never comes on. It’s more of a challenge to keep it cool enough with exhaust fans. That really cuts back on power consumption and running cost

 

[MnFish1]

Well, I'm in the same boat as the OP but I think it's unfair to generalize that everyone will need to add 10-20K to their large build cost. Most people will buy 180-300 gallon tank, carry it into the house, set it up, and call it a day. You want to have an in-wall build in an area that requires re-building of part of the house and a fish room that isn't even on the blue print? - That's on a whole different level.

I'm in the process of getting a ~270 gallon tank which originally was supposed to go into kitchen/living area. I said to my wife, let's remodel the kitchen before we install the tank because once the tank is in we won't be able to do construction around it. So we spend a certain amount of money on the kitchen and in the end decided against putting it in that location in fear of danger if there ever was a spectacular leak or flood.

So back to the drawing board we went and decided to put it downstairs in our "rec room". So I said: we should re-tile the room now, the wife didn't like the tiles that were there when we bought the house to begin with, and so we retiled the whole area including laundry/utility room and walk-in storage closet. This also required moving the behemoth construction-grade stand with 5 "temporary" tanks across the room.

I then said: since the whole basement is newly retiled we should just remodel the bathroom and this way the whole level is re-modeled and won't have to worry about anything for a while. So we then gutted the bathroom and spend decent money remodeling it. I won't mention the extra electrical runs while the ceiling was open and upgrades/replacement to the HVAC because you already get the point.

The tank is hopefully coming within the next month or two. Does it cost more than a 40-breeder during the dollar-per-gallon sale at Petco? You bet! Pumps are more expensive and you need more than one, lights are larger and more, more heaters, more powerheads, more sand and more salt, etc, etc, BUT.....

....adding all the "additional" expenses of home remodeling as the cost of the large tank is akin to saying that a Honda Accord costs $120k because you decided to build a garage with professional lift for occasional do-it-yourself brake job.

You want a larger tank? Get it and enjoy it. Don't be the 1-percenter with regrets.

I think the costs of 'remodeling' - that some people have to do are not 'cosmetic' - they involve shoring up floors, perhaps putting in a basement sump making the space, etc etc. But you're right - in the end - if you want it get it.

 

[sbash]

Agreed. If you see my build thread, I made significant changes to my house to support my 220 in a way that looks awesome. However, going from a 65 gallon (80 w/sump) to a 220 (300 w/sump), it is a whole different beast. The first few years were a constant battle. It's five now this month and it is pretty solid, and I don't have to do much for maintenance.

But I have to say, my sumpless 50 gallon tanks are much easier all around. I'm talking effort, problem solving, monetary costs (i.e. DI and Salt), feeding, everything is just easier.

 

[vlad2spinn]

Good luck and I guess better to be safe than sorry, but even 3 inches of cheap concrete is 2000-3000 PSI and most are far better than this. This can easily support a 240g tank. I have a 7-8 year old house and I have 4 inches of concrete pour on the floor. The mistake on the load bearing wall must have sucked and I imagine that you might have chosen a different location if you otherwise had known. This sounds like you had an engineer problem more than tank problem, which I am sorry to hear.

I was thinking the same. The slab in my basement is about 3". Maybe the OP meant the foundation walls. Either way, I've had larger tanks than 240 sitting on the slab for 25 years without issue.

Benn in construction for 30 years. Never heard or seen of a basement slab being 12"-18"

Thanks for the


Maybe I misheard, but the exterminator, who drills basements for termite treatments, confirmed that our neighborhood has thinner slabs than normal.

Sounds like the problem is not the large tank but your engineering/architect. Slabs don't need to be any thicker than 3-6" only footings under walls and columns are that thick. Concrete strength is usually 3500 psi. I've got 300 gallons on my 4" thick basement slab no problem. You could park a MAC truck on a 6" slab.

I always try to work with the space I have in my home due to the issues that can come up once an architect and engineer get involved. Another reason my new aquariums will be going onto the basement floor with a stand designed to distribute the weight of the tank over a larger area. I hope that you get through these challenges and get the aquarium project back on track.

There seems to be some confusing and conflicting comments regarding required structural supports needed for tanks. I am a licensed class A general contractor and can clarify some confusion. Typical residential slab thickness is 4”, so 3” slab is thinner then normal. Whether the slab is 3” or 4”, it is not intoned to support large point loads, but may be OK in supporting distributed loads. A typical load bearing wall distributes load it supports into every stud that is part of the wall. Depending on the total load it supports, 4” slab may be sufficient to carry the load because each stud only supports small part of the total load. As soon as you cut out the wall and install a beam to carry this load, you generate two point loads on the ends of the beam. The point loads are transferred into the posts supporting the beam. In general, you have to transfer this point load to properly designed footing. I assume that in this case contractor needed to cut out part of the slab to install 12”-18” footing under the supporting posts. So, if the tank itself was on a well designed steel stand and sitting directly on the 3” thick slab, it most like would be just fine. But as soon as you add a beam with point loads supporting existing house and additional weight of the tank, you need proper footings. I am not going to go into this, but in general, supporting 1000 gallon tank that is 1’ tall is much easier then same volume tank that is 4’ tall because of total footprint and distribution of weight; like AlexG already mentioned above.

 

[Ameer214]

Mo water, mo problems. With today's tech, small tanks are much easier, cheaper. Just need to find ways to keep it interesting without going bigger. The idea that you need a large tank to keep things stable is outdated and needs be squashed everytime it is proposed.

 

[jda]

I think that we all get this, but just enough concrete for slab-on-grade to keep from breaking apart is enough to hold a 240 gallon tank. A platform framed story with 2 or 3 floor joists running perpendicular can handle this up against a load bearing wall and is not much more, if any, than 20-25 people in a room at a party... and the tank hopefully does not bounce around.

Human with average sized feet is about 16-20 PSI. A 24x96 240g tank with a 2" steel perimeter stand has 240 inches of stand on the ground at about 2400 pounds of tank (give or take at 10lbs a gallon estimated). This is only about 10 PSI. If you use something like cinder blocks and have even more ground distribution, then the PSI can get down to 2 or 3 PSI. Just compacted earth can handle this and slab on any suitable building grade has no issues. I don't know that anybody could design a tank that is more than 1000 PSI which even the cheapest slab on grade should be able to do - most are at least 3000 PSI even when thin and with cheap concrete.

I think that the point is that most of what is going on it not exactly for the tank... or we are all missing some info.

 

[southerntnreefer]

Mo water, mo problems. With today's tech, small tanks are much easier, cheaper. Just need to find ways to keep it interesting without going bigger. The idea that you need a large tank to keep things stable is outdated and needs be squashed everytime it is proposed.

Agreed! i think sometimes we end up going bigger, because we have a fish in a small tank that will need it. Classic Blue tang in anything other than a 180. Fish is growing, were attached, and we want to " do the right thing" That wasnt my experience, but i see it alot. For us we went bigger for the fish we wanted. Never did get them, due to supply and demand, and other issues we ran into, but we felt it too. Im about to fire up a 72 bowfront. For me this is my happy zone. I have a 32 biocube in my office thats super low maintenance. Tanks almost 3 years old. No skimmer, just flow and occasional WC. My 90 did well. ill be happy to be back in my zone with the 72. The 220 was fun, and was fish only, and while i had cool fish, it just didnt grab me the way corals do.

 

[Casket_Case]

Agreed. I started with a twenty gallon and was dying for a bigger tank so I went to a forty gallon and it was insane. In less than a year I downsized to a ten gallon. Even smaller than what I started with... But I'm happier than I've ever been in the hobby.

 

[trmiv]

There's definitely a right size for the right person at the right time. I currently have a Reefer 350 and find it too small for me for my aquascaping and fish wants. But ith my current income, family and time situation, a huge tank isn't feasible. Something around the size of a Red Sea Reefer 625 xxl is about my limit (59x25.6x23.6) at the moment. Its right at the point where it's not significantly more expensive than what I have, but it has a nice bit more room for more choices of livestock.

 

[southerntnreefer]

I think for me at least, my want for a medium tank, that is more manageable, is we like to travel. 1 or 2 smaller tanks make it easy enough to do so. MY daughter is down the street if i have an issue my controller cant get me in to fix. Anything bigger, i start dealing with complex issues, dumping of a dehumidifier multiple times a day, and harder to leave the house.

 

[vlad2spinn]

I think that we all get this, but just enough concrete for slab-on-grade to keep from breaking apart is enough to hold a 240 gallon tank. A platform framed story with 2 or 3 floor joists running perpendicular can handle this up against a load bearing wall and is not much more, if any, than 20-25 people in a room at a party... and the tank hopefully does not bounce around.

Human with average sized feet is about 16-20 PSI. A 24x96 240g tank with a 2" steel perimeter stand has 240 inches of stand on the ground at about 2400 pounds of tank (give or take at 10lbs a gallon estimated). This is only about 10 PSI. If you use something like cinder blocks and have even more ground distribution, then the PSI can get down to 2 or 3 PSI. Just compacted earth can handle this and slab on any suitable building grade has no issues. I don't know that anybody could design a tank that is more than 1000 PSI which even the cheapest slab on grade should be able to do - most are at least 3000 PSI even when thin and with cheap concrete.

I think that the point is that most of what is going on it not exactly for the tank... or we are all missing some info.

Depends how you view "for the tank". If you put the tank on the slab, great, you save money; but, your tank is in the basement. If you want that same tank in your living room and want it to look nice so you build it into a wall, that costs substantially more. Extra beams, posts, and footings are to support the house because you cut load bearing wall. So is it "for the tank" or part of greater remodel? I would agree with OP, it's for the tank, because you want the tank to look nice. Was it necessary, maybe, maybe not. But I would argue it is part of the tank build and should be considered as such. You could make the same argument for many other things. Do you need nice cabinets that act as extra storage to cover your tank stand? No, but you want your tank to look nice. You may view extra storage as part of additional remodel and make an argument that it should not be counted as tank expense.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Bigger is better. I went from 360 to 660 with no regrets. Tank stable on 6” slab with 3 posts at 10ft long.
In 15 months will be going from 660g to 1500g. Still no regrets