Think twice before you go big

[MnFish1]

There seems to be some confusing and conflicting comments regarding required structural supports needed for tanks. I am a licensed class A general contractor and can clarify some confusion. Typical residential slab thickness is 4”, so 3” slab is thinner then normal. Whether the slab is 3” or 4”, it is not intoned to support large point loads, but may be OK in supporting distributed loads. A typical load bearing wall distributes load it supports into every stud that is part of the wall. Depending on the total load it supports, 4” slab may be sufficient to carry the load because each stud only supports small part of the total load. As soon as you cut out the wall and install a beam to carry this load, you generate two point loads on the ends of the beam. The point loads are transferred into the posts supporting the beam. In general, you have to transfer this point load to properly designed footing. I assume that in this case contractor needed to cut out part of the slab to install 12”-18” footing under the supporting posts. So, if the tank itself was on a well designed steel stand and sitting directly on the 3” thick slab, it most like would be just fine. But as soon as you add a beam with point loads supporting existing house and additional weight of the tank, you need proper footings. I am not going to go into this, but in general, supporting 1000 gallon tank that is 1’ tall is much easier then same volume tank that is 4’ tall because of total footprint and distribution of weight; like AlexG already mentioned above.

You lost me with some of the things - but - part of it depends - right - on what 'floor' you're putting the tank on. Here - we have a slab in the basement - but - above that - its all wood. But - I think I get what you're talking about - for example - one person recommended - (because we wanted to put a tank in a stupid place that looked nice) - to of those adjustable - (things - sorry I dont know the word) - on top of a 4x4 laid on our basement floor - to support the tank where we wanted it (we decided to just move it to a place where it would be 'ok' without modification.

 

[southerntnreefer]

You lost me with some of the things - but - part of it depends - right - on what 'floor' you're putting the tank on. Here - we have a slab in the basement - but - above that - its all wood. But - I think I get what you're talking about - for example - one person recommended - (because we wanted to put a tank in a stupid place that looked nice) - to of those adjustable - (things - sorry I dont know the word) - on top of a 4x4 laid on our basement floor - to support the tank where we wanted it (we decided to just move it to a place where it would be 'ok' without modification.

a big reason we dont have a large tank upstairs is this. I could of done exactly that with the adjustable poles to brace the floor. Built a beam, put it up to support it, however, my wife and I didnt want the modification. Thus we went with a tank size that didnt require that. Now someday when we move to a home without a full basement, and maybe on a full slab, then maybe then ill have another, but the risk vs reward wasnt there for us.

 

[Shooter6]

I've been in this hobby and reading about reefkeeping for many years. I repeatedly see threads on "what would you do if you could start over?" A common answer is "I would set up a larger system." I want to push back on that.

There is so much pressure to go big and so many reasons why big tanks make sense. Many people's progressions in the hobby look like mine. I started with 10g freshwater, then 20g, then 38g reef, then 75g reef, and now planning a 240g reef (this is all over more than 25 years, so I'm not talking about impulsive upgrading behavior). Each time I wanted more stability, more aquascaping possibilities, more stocking options, and more to see. So now I'm about 18 months into *planning* a large system (see my build thread) and I'm having some regrets before I've even put any water in the tank. With larger tanks, everything gets more expensive, and I mean really expensive. Larger tank, more rock, more sand, bigger light fixture with more lights, larger wavemakers, bigger sump, bigger return pumps, more salt, more electricity, more water.

But I want to share a cautionary tale about how my dream reef tank, original budget of around $15K, is now going to cost more than a sports car. I am doing a fish room with an in-wall display, so I had to open the walls. The architect said the wall was not load-bearing -- good news! Then two weeks into construction they went "oops, we were wrong, it's holding up two levels of the house." No problem, add $2500 for some new supports added out wide to replace the one we removed for where the display tank sits. Should be fine, but let's have a structural engineer review just in case. That will only cost $500 or so. Then, as we're digging a trench in the slab for a floor drain (an absolute requirement), we got another nasty surprise. The basement slabs in my neighborhood (homes are all about 100 years old) are about 3" to 6" thick instead of 12" to 18". So we need to tear up half the basement slab, excavate, and pour new concrete footings for the tank and for the vertical beams supporting the house. Another $10K. I suppose we might have wanted a thicker slab anyway, but the house would have had at least another 50 years before it was a problem.

So I'm about to approve that change order to the construction contract, but seriously thought about whether I could sell the custom tank that's been sitting in the garage and downsize to something that won't break my house. Too late, I guess, since we already moved the supports and I've already accumulated all the equipment that goes with this particular tank. Fortunately I can absorb these costs and still pay for my kids' college and our retirement, maybe have a skip a couple of vacations. But the lesson learned (which I hope to share) is that if you are a normal person who has not been lucky to have investments go well and save for 20+ years, then try to make the most of that 20 gallon, or 55 gallon or whatever tank or even a nano, and take it as a challenge on how to create something beautiful in a small box and how to keep it stable. We need to celebrate nanos and "regular" size tanks and reef-keepers who maintain them and not feel or create pressure to upgrade. Yes, we'll always drool over the ocean-sized tanks online with armies of tangs swimming busily and peacefully over an expanse of mature coral reefs, but think twice before you go big.

Have you gotten to your lighting yet?

 

[MnFish1]

a big reason we dont have a large tank upstairs is this. I could of done exactly that with the adjustable poles to brace the floor. Built a beam, put it up to support it, however, my wife and I didnt want the modification. Thus we went with a tank size that didnt require that. Now someday when we move to a home without a full basement, and maybe on a full slab, then maybe then ill have another, but the risk vs reward wasnt there for us.

Exactly

 

[southerntnreefer]

Exactly

We did then try do do a big tank in the basement man cave, but we found at about 2 years down the road we were not downstairs as much as we hoped, so it got sold off to save some money on electric bill, and water bill before the 72 came on line. Cost didnt warrant what we were getting out of it.

 

[ByronP]

I have a large multi tank system that spans up 3 floors. The monthly electric was killing me, so I now have the main circulation pump set like this "OSC 000:00/007:30/011:15 Then ON" which has saved a considerable amount of money yet has not caused any issues. In fact the reduced heat from the large pump has saved a lot over the summer since the AC doesn't have to fight the pumps heat. The reactors run on small separate pumps so they keep the sump moving even when the main is off.

Each tank has its own wave pumps and a heater just in case of a main pump failure. Failures and power outages can and will happen. So if anything people with larger tanks and/or multi room systems will need to invest in a large whole home generator system with an auto switch as well as a second set for failover in case first generator fails (expect 1 to fail when you need it the most). For this you are looking at about 15-30k usd depending on your power needs.

When I had just a single 75G tank I had a couple battery backups that cost a couple hundred dollars each and was good to go.

One thing I wish I did plan better was my air intake and exhaust locations that come out the back of my house (3 dryer vents, (1 intake, 2 exhausts)). Where they sit right now is in the way of where I want to put part of a new deck and they seem out of place (if you really look, most may not notice but I do).

 

[Miamidchi]

I’ve just decided to give up and build a new house to accommodate my fish dreams..... 1k gallon tank and all the works. Build the house around the tank can’t be that wrong can it?

 

[vlad2spinn]

I’ve just decided to give up and build a new house to accommodate my fish dreams..... 1k gallon tank and all the works. Build the house around the tank can’t be that wrong can it?

That is exactly what I did. 1k tank on the second floor (living room), filtration room on the first floor, 100 gallon surge tank on the 3rd floor, 300 gallon sump buried under the house before house was built, with floor hatch/access to it from the filtration room. And 3 more tanks throughout the house plumbed into the same filtration.

 

[SteveG_inDC]

Mo water, mo problems.

Nice! That is the perfect TL;DR version of my post!

 

[SteveG_inDC]

There seems to be some confusing and conflicting comments regarding required structural supports needed for tanks. I am a licensed class A general contractor and can clarify some confusion. Typical residential slab thickness is 4”, so 3” slab is thinner then normal. Whether the slab is 3” or 4”, it is not intoned to support large point loads, but may be OK in supporting distributed loads. A typical load bearing wall distributes load it supports into every stud that is part of the wall. Depending on the total load it supports, 4” slab may be sufficient to carry the load because each stud only supports small part of the total load. As soon as you cut out the wall and install a beam to carry this load, you generate two point loads on the ends of the beam. The point loads are transferred into the posts supporting the beam. In general, you have to transfer this point load to properly designed footing. I assume that in this case contractor needed to cut out part of the slab to install 12”-18” footing under the supporting posts. So, if the tank itself was on a well designed steel stand and sitting directly on the 3” thick slab, it most like would be just fine. But as soon as you add a beam with point loads supporting existing house and additional weight of the tank, you need proper footings. I am not going to go into this, but in general, supporting 1000 gallon tank that is 1’ tall is much easier then same volume tank that is 4’ tall because of total footprint and distribution of weight; like AlexG already mentioned above.

Wow, very nice rundown. There are so many conflicting opinions about slab thickness here. I may have gotten some of the details wrong, but fortunately I hired a structural engineer who looked at all the specifications, came on site, took measurements, did a thorough inspection of the home with walls and floors open, and did his own calculations. We're following his advice as opposed to the internet commenters, but it's still fun to read everyone's opinions and consider how we all have different risk tolerances. As we speak, the guys are digging out the basement for some big-butt footings that will help me sleep very well at night (and feel confident in having dance parties in my living room over the tank).

 

[steve bergmann]

I've been in this hobby and reading about reefkeeping for many years. I repeatedly see threads on "what would you do if you could start over?" A common answer is "I would set up a larger system." I want to push back on that.

There is so much pressure to go big and so many reasons why big tanks make sense. Many people's progressions in the hobby look like mine. I started with 10g freshwater, then 20g, then 38g reef, then 75g reef, and now planning a 240g reef (this is all over more than 25 years, so I'm not talking about impulsive upgrading behavior). Each time I wanted more stability, more aquascaping possibilities, more stocking options, and more to see. So now I'm about 18 months into *planning* a large system (see my build thread) and I'm having some regrets before I've even put any water in the tank. With larger tanks, everything gets more expensive, and I mean really expensive. Larger tank, more rock, more sand, bigger light fixture with more lights, larger wavemakers, bigger sump, bigger return pumps, more salt, more electricity, more water.

But I want to share a cautionary tale about how my dream reef tank, original budget of around $15K, is now going to cost more than a sports car. I am doing a fish room with an in-wall display, so I had to open the walls. The architect said the wall was not load-bearing -- good news! Then two weeks into construction they went "oops, we were wrong, it's holding up two levels of the house." No problem, add $2500 for some new supports added out wide to replace the one we removed for where the display tank sits. Should be fine, but let's have a structural engineer review just in case. That will only cost $500 or so. Then, as we're digging a trench in the slab for a floor drain (an absolute requirement), we got another nasty surprise. The basement slabs in my neighborhood (homes are all about 100 years old) are about 3" to 6" thick instead of 12" to 18". So we need to tear up half the basement slab, excavate, and pour new concrete footings for the tank and for the vertical beams supporting the house. Another $10K. I suppose we might have wanted a thicker slab anyway, but the house would have had at least another 50 years before it was a problem.

So I'm about to approve that change order to the construction contract, but seriously thought about whether I could sell the custom tank that's been sitting in the garage and downsize to something that won't break my house. Too late, I guess, since we already moved the supports and I've already accumulated all the equipment that goes with this particular tank. Fortunately I can absorb these costs and still pay for my kids' college and our retirement, maybe have a skip a couple of vacations. But the lesson learned (which I hope to share) is that if you are a normal person who has not been lucky to have investments go well and save for 20+ years, then try to make the most of that 20 gallon, or 55 gallon or whatever tank or even a nano, and take it as a challenge on how to create something beautiful in a small box and how to keep it stable. We need to celebrate nanos and "regular" size tanks and reef-keepers who maintain them and not feel or create pressure to upgrade. Yes, we'll always drool over the ocean-sized tanks online with armies of tangs swimming busily and peacefully over an expanse of mature coral reefs, but think twice before you go big.

Great Post. I can relate to this, I have followed the same path but less expensive with each upgrade. It seems like you can never have a big enough tank. I currently have a 400 gallon tank. I had a 240 for 7 years and upgraded to a 400 gallon tank which I have had for 10 years. Now of course I yearn for a bigger tank. Here is a video of my tank on its 10 year anniversary:

The fish room is situated right behind the tank underneath the basement stairs. The tank is located in the basement between the pillars.

 

[SteveG_inDC]

Have you gotten to your lighting yet?

Yes

Great Post. I can relate to this, I have followed the same path but less expensive with each upgrade. It seems like you can never have a big enough tank. I currently have a 400 gallon tank. I had a 240 for 7 years and upgraded to a 400 gallon tank which I have had for 10 years. Now of course I yearn for a bigger tank. Here is a video of my tank on its 10 year anniversary:

The fish room is situated right behind the tank underneath the basement stairs. The tank is located in the basement between the pillars.

Wow, so many things to love about your tank. Not sure how you were able to control the GSP encrustation so well but it really makes the reef look natural. What are you using for flow? I can see what look like one MP on each side. I don't see a build thread button. Do you have more info on your system?

 

[SR Reefing]

Here in NY, concrete slab in basement usually 4" thick with 4,000 psi on New Construction. You will only see footing which is around 12" tick.

3"-4" slab could support your tank if you directly place the stand on top of it. However if u need to place support beam on the slab, it will not be good enough. You will need a big footing.

 

[SteveG_inDC]

Here in NY, concrete slab in basement usually 4" thick with 4,000 psi on New Construction. You will only see footing which is around 12" tick.

3"-4" slab could support your tank if you directly place the stand on top of it. However if u need to place support beam on the slab, it will not be good enough. You will need a big footing.

You can see the holes for the footings in my build thread here.

 

[BradB]

Removing part of a load bearing wall likely would cost the same if you removed it to install a smaller fish tank. The floor would cost the same if it was reinforced to hold the weight from the change to the wall. If the floor was reinforced only for the weight of the tank, I'd hate to know what would have happened if a few fatter friends (which weigh less than the tank, but have a much smaller footprint and move around) came over to see your fish.

It does not seem like your problems are related to tank size.

 

[SteveG_inDC]

Removing part of a load bearing wall likely would cost the same if you removed it to install a smaller fish tank. The floor would cost the same if it was reinforced to hold the weight from the change to the wall. If the floor was reinforced only for the weight of the tank, I'd hate to know what would have happened if a few fatter friends (which weigh less than the tank, but have a much smaller footprint and move around) came over to see your fish.

It does not seem like your problems are related to tank size.

The reason for moving the vertical supports was precisely to allow a 6’ opening. A 4’ opening in the wall would not have needed it.

The structural engineer noted that it was the tank weight that necessitated the tank-specific footings. Smaller tank would have been ok on existing floor. All of my friends are very lean and fit.

So yeah, mo’ water, mo’ problems

 

[SVA]

I’ve just decided to give up and build a new house to accommodate my fish dreams..... 1k gallon tank and all the works. Build the house around the tank can’t be that wrong can it?

Built a 225 gal plus 30 gal sump. My husbands is a builder so perhaps a bit easier. I designed the tank and system and had it custom built. I love it but things can and did go wrong. The supports were obviously there - just say large bathtub and the framers will know exactly what to do. Don't forget to plumb a drain (floor and tank) - they were godsends. Multiple outlets above and below (and watch your drip loops of course) - great if you map out your system in advance and can avoid a lot of unnecessary tubing and wires. I plumbed it for hot and cold water and a distillation system to fill directly into the sump - watch out for pressure issues - we blew out a couple of times before everything was good. I assume you're going to fill and empty via the sumps ?

If you don't overstock the run cost is a lot less and you can design it for easier maintenance.

Glad to help if I can.

 

[Cali-Saltwater-1st-Timer]

Alot of the issues you're dealing with are independent to your build. They arent universal. Someone on a slab for example that doesn't want an in wall setup or fish room won't incur a lot of the cost you did. Of course larger new equipment cost more money but it isn't a cheap hobby, you have to pay to play. Upgrading typically always has a cost increase associated with it, but I disagree it's to a point where it's a financial burden.

 

[Lawpoke87]

I’ve had all sizes from a 90g to a 600g in wall. I currently have a 155g peninsula with a large dedicated fish room and its by far my favorite setup. The 90g was just too limited as far as fish and livestock choices. I enjoyed both my 180g and 210g but neither had a dedicated fish room. My 600g was simply too much for me. RO water, water changes, maintenance, stocking, etc. Takes a lot of coral to make a 600g look full.

Current setup is fantastic. Enough room to keep most reef safe fish. Peninsula allows for lots of space for my sticks as well as LPS and a few zoas. Fish room is a must have when possible. Allows me to have a 50g fug, water mixing, etc.. Would be really hard to go back to an under tank sump at this point.