Personally, I'm a big believer in freedom of choice. This extends to fishkeeping or whatever hobby you dabble in. I know folks who feed their tangs apples & oranges, and people who sprinkle ginger or dose bleach in order to beat parasites. :eek: The latter is certainly an example of "thinking outside the box" for treating fish diseases, and if that approach works for you then I say great! :D But if it doesn't then know we'll always be happy to help you with established scientific methods in the fish disease forum. I've always felt it does no good to preach the importance of QT, because we only learn by doing. ;)
Thinking Outside the Box
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Brew, I think chemicals in a tank are silly except for some calcium and alk. I don't use GAC, or any other abbreviations as they are not needed. I also think because so many people quarantine, their fish have no immune system which is the reason for all the disease threads. If a fish is not exposed to pathogens, it will "never" be immune to them. It is what it is and I didn't make that up, the fish did. I think what I do is much easier than quarantining and I don't know why so many people just can't grasp the concept. I am not that smart and it has been working for me for a long time.
We have been doing this aquarium thing all wrong and our concepts for how to keep things healthy and natural are all screwed up.
We have been doing this aquarium thing all wrong and our concepts for how to keep things healthy and natural are all screwed up.
Brew12
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I completely agree with you. However, look at your tank. It looks like the ocean! Most hobbyists tanks don't look like the ocean. They look like some story book version of what they want the ocean to look like. It just doesn't match reality. Your tank works so well because it reflects the real world with real world immune systems.
If your tank was sparkling clean with no algae or bacteria showing I doubt your fish would continue to spawn or stay healthy.
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That is correct, my tank runs on bacteria, detritus and parasites to keep everything running smoothly just like in the sea. My tank looks like the ocean only because of aquascaping. I made almost all of those rocks but they don't do much for the health of the tank, that is just window dressing.
Fish are different than most of us. A normal state for a fish is pregnant. They don't need a male to be pregnant, it just happens if you are a healthy fish. It's like "most" people grow hair, and it grows all the time, a fish grows eggs continuously. If there is no male the fish either ejects the eggs or re-absorbs them, but that is natural for a healthy fish. If your fish are not pregnant, they are not healthy. I can't help it, blame the fish. That all comes about with the proper food :"and" a functioning immune system. Remember, a Mother fish imparts it's immune system on to it's fry and if the Mother doesn't have a functioning immune system, it's babies won't either and I don't even know if many of them will be born. Their immune system and reproductive system work in tandem and the proper food along with it's associated pathogens are needed. Fish are simple creatures that evolved with bacteria, viruses and parasites. All three of those things are needed to have healthy immune, pregnant fish that can pass their genes to their offspring. I didn't make this up, Google a fishes immune system.
Fish are different than most of us. A normal state for a fish is pregnant. They don't need a male to be pregnant, it just happens if you are a healthy fish. It's like "most" people grow hair, and it grows all the time, a fish grows eggs continuously. If there is no male the fish either ejects the eggs or re-absorbs them, but that is natural for a healthy fish. If your fish are not pregnant, they are not healthy. I can't help it, blame the fish. That all comes about with the proper food :"and" a functioning immune system. Remember, a Mother fish imparts it's immune system on to it's fry and if the Mother doesn't have a functioning immune system, it's babies won't either and I don't even know if many of them will be born. Their immune system and reproductive system work in tandem and the proper food along with it's associated pathogens are needed. Fish are simple creatures that evolved with bacteria, viruses and parasites. All three of those things are needed to have healthy immune, pregnant fish that can pass their genes to their offspring. I didn't make this up, Google a fishes immune system.
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Humble Buddy, nice to see you here. I used to feed my Moorish Idol and Batfish frozen bananas. They loved them. I guess they thought they were some kind of sponge. :D
Of course, so am I which is why I don't preach. I just show what I do, put up pictures of some of my 25 year old, spawning fish and let people do whatever they want. I even direct a bunch over to you if they want to go that route as both ways can work if done correctly. :D
All of my fish were bought as babies, they all live out their life in perfect health and all the paired fish spawn. None have ever been quarantined, but Humblefish also has healthy fish that have been quarantined so everyone can just pick a system or make up a new one. :p
Humble and I go way back to the Noah days.
I didn't have room for my spawning whale sharks and manta rays so you have to make believe.
Of course, so am I which is why I don't preach. I just show what I do, put up pictures of some of my 25 year old, spawning fish and let people do whatever they want. I even direct a bunch over to you if they want to go that route as both ways can work if done correctly. :D
All of my fish were bought as babies, they all live out their life in perfect health and all the paired fish spawn. None have ever been quarantined, but Humblefish also has healthy fish that have been quarantined so everyone can just pick a system or make up a new one. :p
Humble and I go way back to the Noah days.
I didn't have room for my spawning whale sharks and manta rays so you have to make believe.
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When I was in the jungle in Viet Nam for a year, I never saw a road, roof, building, wall, electricity, Oldsmobile, plumbing or even a hint of a Supermodel. I did however see lizards, ducks, monkeys, snakes, elephants, tigers, mosquitoes, scorpions and the enemy but no hand sanitizer.
We didn't have water to wash our hands with as we reserved that for drinking even though it was collected in a river and was full of bugs, leeches, mud and everything else that lives in mud along with I am sure, parasites. . A few times I swam in a bomb crater after I threw in a grenade to kill the Loch Ness Monsters living there. We washed our clothes, if we wanted to, when it rained, which it did for 6 months and when it wasn't raining, it was raining harder. I never got sick, not even a cold, headache, infection, sore throat, ich, ear ache or the heartbreak of psoriasis. I wonder why!
We didn't have water to wash our hands with as we reserved that for drinking even though it was collected in a river and was full of bugs, leeches, mud and everything else that lives in mud along with I am sure, parasites. . A few times I swam in a bomb crater after I threw in a grenade to kill the Loch Ness Monsters living there. We washed our clothes, if we wanted to, when it rained, which it did for 6 months and when it wasn't raining, it was raining harder. I never got sick, not even a cold, headache, infection, sore throat, ich, ear ache or the heartbreak of psoriasis. I wonder why!
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I like to prove everything I say so I post pictures. (Cool Lizard isn't it?) I don't have any pictures of Supermodels because they are normally taking the pictures. :rolleyes:
I post many pictures of my fish that are spawning and I can post some pictures from when they were babies until they died 12 years later of old age. I also post many times pictures of my tank over many years with no diseases. I have never posted on a disease thread about my fish. Only about my rotator cuff operation :eek: I don't have any paired fish that are not spawning as only the healthiest fish will spawn. Clownfish and all damsels will spawn even if they eat corn flakes and watch reality TV and listen to Rap music all day so I don't put much qualifications in them.
I would like to see pictures of very old quarantined tanks with spawning fish that have "never" been sick. Does anyone have any? Did any of the fry survive to grow up? I am interested in that also. I may be totally wrong about everything except Supermodels as I worked with quite a few of those. The ones from Victoria Secret are something to see but that is for another thread. :p
This thread is about out of the box thinking so think out of the box. I said, and added links as to why bacteria and parasites are good to keep up the immune systems of fish and I explained how a fish which is not exposed to parasites and bacteria will have a compromised or non existent immune system. Can someone explain to me in simple terms that my simple mind can comprehend, how a fish can survive long term and pass on immunity to it's offspring if it is not exposed to parasites and disease organisms? Can someone also explain why we humans get vaccines for measles, flu, tetanus, chicken pox etc. if our immune system doesn't need such things. Are we wasting our money and should we spend it on building a bubble to live in so we don't get those diseases. If I lived in a bubble with a Supermodel it may be fun but many of us can't afford such a bubble. :D
I feel in a natural system which has a healthy population of parasites, bacteria and viruses the (healthy) fishes natural defense will repel those invaders and allow enough of them to live and reproduce in small numbers but enough of them will live to keep the immune systems of our fish in perfect working order just like in the sea. I can and have proved that works and it works for at least 45 years. I would like to hear conflicting stories, "with some proof" or links to scientific studies that show a fish can live forever and stay healthy and immune and spawn and have their fry grow without encountering pathogens. This is a test of the National Broadcasting System. :)
I can, and do add fish to my system all the time that have obvious parasites. Am I nuts or am I on to something. I have no idea but I am sure Humble does. ;)
I post many pictures of my fish that are spawning and I can post some pictures from when they were babies until they died 12 years later of old age. I also post many times pictures of my tank over many years with no diseases. I have never posted on a disease thread about my fish. Only about my rotator cuff operation :eek: I don't have any paired fish that are not spawning as only the healthiest fish will spawn. Clownfish and all damsels will spawn even if they eat corn flakes and watch reality TV and listen to Rap music all day so I don't put much qualifications in them.
I would like to see pictures of very old quarantined tanks with spawning fish that have "never" been sick. Does anyone have any? Did any of the fry survive to grow up? I am interested in that also. I may be totally wrong about everything except Supermodels as I worked with quite a few of those. The ones from Victoria Secret are something to see but that is for another thread. :p
This thread is about out of the box thinking so think out of the box. I said, and added links as to why bacteria and parasites are good to keep up the immune systems of fish and I explained how a fish which is not exposed to parasites and bacteria will have a compromised or non existent immune system. Can someone explain to me in simple terms that my simple mind can comprehend, how a fish can survive long term and pass on immunity to it's offspring if it is not exposed to parasites and disease organisms? Can someone also explain why we humans get vaccines for measles, flu, tetanus, chicken pox etc. if our immune system doesn't need such things. Are we wasting our money and should we spend it on building a bubble to live in so we don't get those diseases. If I lived in a bubble with a Supermodel it may be fun but many of us can't afford such a bubble. :D
I feel in a natural system which has a healthy population of parasites, bacteria and viruses the (healthy) fishes natural defense will repel those invaders and allow enough of them to live and reproduce in small numbers but enough of them will live to keep the immune systems of our fish in perfect working order just like in the sea. I can and have proved that works and it works for at least 45 years. I would like to hear conflicting stories, "with some proof" or links to scientific studies that show a fish can live forever and stay healthy and immune and spawn and have their fry grow without encountering pathogens. This is a test of the National Broadcasting System. :)
I can, and do add fish to my system all the time that have obvious parasites. Am I nuts or am I on to something. I have no idea but I am sure Humble does. ;)
Paul, my last fish added was my copperband butterfly, he developed ich, I fed him a LOT, he has now been in the tank for 1.5 years and used to spar, with his top spikes, against an abusive yellow tang I had. I sent the tang to a new home(larger). But then I also had pennies in my first tank with my under gravel filter that I converted into a plenum and washed my dead coral skeletons in bleach water to keep them white. Silly me :) Keep preaching, I love the conversation it creates.
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Tripdad and anyone else silly enough to read what I come up with. What I am suggesting, is not to just throw fish in your tank without quarantining. If you have a normal tank that you have been feeding flakes and pellets or if you have been quarantining, you can't do this. If you do, you will "lose all your fish". There is a process and this is not the thread for it as this is a "Thinking out of the Box" thread.
You need to get your fish immune first so don't do this unless you know what you are doing. If you don't know what you are doing or if you are a Noob or practice quarantining, keep doing that and don't write me to say you killed all your fish because you listened to me. If your fish died, they were not immune now were they! :eek:
I am very surprised no one is yelling at me yet......Give it time.
You need to get your fish immune first so don't do this unless you know what you are doing. If you don't know what you are doing or if you are a Noob or practice quarantining, keep doing that and don't write me to say you killed all your fish because you listened to me. If your fish died, they were not immune now were they! :eek:
I am very surprised no one is yelling at me yet......Give it time.
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Humble old Pal, I knew you couldn't stay away. :D
The VA is checking me this week for PTSD. Maybe that is the reason. Who knows. :rolleyes:
The VA is checking me this week for PTSD. Maybe that is the reason. Who knows. :rolleyes:
When they try to prescribe meds that will just make you constipated, show them photos of your beautiful aquarium and say this is how I will manage the condition instead. ;)
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I think they want to put me on Prizapro. It's hard to be sexy when you are constipated. :eek:
Just don't let them use copper on you. That will turn your skin blue. Then you'll have to go perform with Blue Man Group. :eek:
Brew12
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They will see all those empty Gran Marnier bottles and understand immediately! :eek:;)
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AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHhhhhh :eek:
Im in San Diego. Veterans and PTSD and Homeless are a huge problem here. In the last several years instead of promoting free food and medication through the gov systems, several organisations are turning to the alternative of addressing overall nutrition. Dehydration is a major issue actually as well as overall nutrition.
So now Vets can sign up with community outreaches that provide food and health care if they are willing to participate in the group effort to maintain the community center. Dishes, yard work, gen maintenance, garden programs, odd jobs, job training and skill assessments are part of the programs as opposed to the weekly monthly check in for food and medical handouts. It lowers overall operations costs and as california has finally allowed stores to donate FRESH foods that are a day over the best sold by date and not just put the millions of pounds into the trash. the savings to the local govt are incredible. in the past food programs were limited nutritionally with what the organisation could afford. that means canned/dried foods.
The findings are that most most respond to the "treatment" and many become more willing to participate in the community building and some actually apply to continue working in the system.
Some sadly do still have difficulty , major ones, and medications are needed, but far fewer than before in most cases, and advancement in psychotropic drugs and the understanding of the use and addiction cycle dangers of opiates is leading to even greater success in the treatment of PTSD. In some cases esp in depression physical pain is linked to depression esp in back aches, so rather than prescribing meds, exercise(the little maint jobs) and massage are being "prescribed".
So in effect there being reconditioned to life outside. Rather than dumped back on the block like I was.
So good food, good water, less govt expense, higher success rates for vets. For vets its hard work and good food for overall health and recovery. Thats pretty out of the box.
Prob be banned soon.
So now Vets can sign up with community outreaches that provide food and health care if they are willing to participate in the group effort to maintain the community center. Dishes, yard work, gen maintenance, garden programs, odd jobs, job training and skill assessments are part of the programs as opposed to the weekly monthly check in for food and medical handouts. It lowers overall operations costs and as california has finally allowed stores to donate FRESH foods that are a day over the best sold by date and not just put the millions of pounds into the trash. the savings to the local govt are incredible. in the past food programs were limited nutritionally with what the organisation could afford. that means canned/dried foods.
The findings are that most most respond to the "treatment" and many become more willing to participate in the community building and some actually apply to continue working in the system.
Some sadly do still have difficulty , major ones, and medications are needed, but far fewer than before in most cases, and advancement in psychotropic drugs and the understanding of the use and addiction cycle dangers of opiates is leading to even greater success in the treatment of PTSD. In some cases esp in depression physical pain is linked to depression esp in back aches, so rather than prescribing meds, exercise(the little maint jobs) and massage are being "prescribed".
So in effect there being reconditioned to life outside. Rather than dumped back on the block like I was.
So good food, good water, less govt expense, higher success rates for vets. For vets its hard work and good food for overall health and recovery. Thats pretty out of the box.
Prob be banned soon.
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Actually I do use some fish medications. This Steampunk lamp I made last week out of PVC uses Methylene Blue to make the water blue as I had no food coloring. I couldn't get that stuff off my fingers for 3 days.
The thing also has an air pump in it for the cool bubbles inside. The water valve is the switch. Now that is thining outside the box. :D
The thing also has an air pump in it for the cool bubbles inside. The water valve is the switch. Now that is thining outside the box. :D
gettaReef
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How can we help boost our fish/s immune systems? I imagine feeding the live foods you describe (fresh live clams, mussels, black worms, brine) helps. What else can we do sir Paul the Wise?
**I see now that maybe this is the wrong forum to ask this question; if so please ignore. I will post this on your other thread.
**I see now that maybe this is the wrong forum to ask this question; if so please ignore. I will post this on your other thread.
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Salty, I was also dumped on the street. I ETSed (got out of the Army) in Cambodia. They flew me to McGuire Air Force Base in Jersey about 100 miles from my house and left me there in the middle of the night with not a cent on me. They did however give me a subway token even though there are no subways in New Jersey. I was still dirty from the jungle. If my girlfriend (who is now my wife) Mother and Brother didn't pick me up, I would have had to hitch hike home. My wife filled out my discharge papers because no one was up.
The next day I was sitting in my house with the TV on, looking around and I couldn't believe it. I didn't get a thank you, have a nice day, sorry to see you go, drop dead, nothing.
The next day I was sitting in my house with the TV on, looking around and I couldn't believe it. I didn't get a thank you, have a nice day, sorry to see you go, drop dead, nothing.
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