Thinking Outside the Box

Paul B

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Thinking outside the box


Unfortunately there is this box. It is very comfortable and warm inside the box which is why almost everyone wants to stay and think inside the box. People inside the box all have much of the same ideas and ways of thinking and oddly enough many of the same problems that don't get resolved using the same methods that people inside the box have been using since the salt water hobby started in the United States in 1971. I think it was on a Tuesday about 2 or 2:30 in the afternoon. Even though many of the methods don't work, people still use those methods because the sides of the box are very hard so the information gets echoed all over the box and we hear the same wrong information over and over again. We can't help but to use those methods because that is whats inside that box. The box also gets a daily influx of Noobs and many times Noobs will try something and it will work. Of course they don't know that that thing has been done forty seven thousand times. Then that information bounces around the box and everyone in the box hears it and thinks that is the way to do that particular thing. So it is done over and over again and even though it worked once, and never works again, it is still done because eventually that Noob gets out of the hobby and goes on one of those "Getting out of the Hobby, everything for sale " threads, but his Ideas keep getting re-circulated. He goes on to colect stamps and becomes an accountant at Burger King where he becomes a manager of the French Fry cooker.

Many years ago there was no box. All we had was wide open spaces, Elvis, Marylin Monroe, bellbottoms and a lot of sky. There were also no methods so we had to find our own ways to do things. We had to experiment and in doing so we killed more fish than StarKist Tuna. There was only one salt water hobbiest per state and there was no internet and we didn't know each other so everyone was a researcher. When we bought a fish,no one knew anything about that fish except the fish itself and Jacues Cousteau and he wasn't talking. So if our tank got overcome with hair algae, we learned on our own how to deal with it. We grew enough algae to cover a 19 hole golf course, but eventually we overcame and eliminated the algae. Of course if we were inside the box we would learn that changing the water will help with that. But we, outside the box realize that never works so we didn't do that.

When our fish got parasites we quickly learned how to deal with that also. Again, if we were inside the box we would change the water , with the same result.

If a fish died, we learned through trial and error how to correct that situation. No, we didn't change the water or check our parameters. We had no test kits anyway so we had to rely on our common sense which worked out pretty well.

We also learned, on our own how to feed fish so they would never get sick. We found out that our fish were supposed to spawn all the time and if they didn't, they were not healthy and prone to diseases. We could have changed the water but knew that in the future there would be this box where everyone changed water all the time but still had numerous problems.

We never had a new fish that wouldn't eat because our tanks were natural and healthy, not sterile like a newly shampooed rug like many of the tanks inside the box.

Sometimes, after a while someone climbs outside of the box and in doing so trys to go against the fine folks inside the box. The people inside the box make fun of that person and say his (or her) Ideas can't work because it is just not done that way. If say that person uses a reverse undergravel filter, the laughter from inside the box will rise to a roar. If that person goes against biblical box knowledge and finds a way to keep fish healthy without quarantining, that roar will become a typhoon and the box will shake.

The box people will never accept those outside the box ideas because it is just not taught inside the box. Even if those outside of the box ideas are proven, they will never be taken seriousely, and more importantly if any of those ideas and methods are very cheap and easy to implement, forget about it, that person may as well take up collecting old shoes because he will be driven out of the fish hobby.

Now everyone knows there are some really nice tanks inside the box. Some tanks, everyone are jealous of so going outside the box is not for everyone. But history proves that all of the new, important, earth shattering or Awe inspiring events that happened were the result of thinking outside the box because if everyone always thought inside the box there would never be any improvement because the box doesn’t allow for it. Most Neanderthals thought inside the box which is the reason they walked around for thousands of years carrying sticks and little else. It took an outside the box thinker to invent a microwave so Neanderthals could throw away that stick and heat up a TV dinner. Eventually Neanderthals got taken over by Liberals who invented that box.
 

jsker

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Harry_Y

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Very true, My first SW tank was nearly 30 years ago.

For filtration I ran an under gravel filter and air stones, and later upgraded
to power-heads on top. I build my light that had a pink, a white, a blue,
and a black-light tube all T12 and my way of trying to replicate natural light.

As the OP said there was very little information out there and a lot of experimenting.

I still will jokingly say "I do everything the wrong way."

On a side note, I have found myself going a little back to some of the older ways.
 
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Paul B

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Harry, thanks for posting. I used to have small lights underwater in the caves. There was no silicone in those days that I remember so I sealed the connections with wax. (this was in the fifties) The lights were from old flashlights. Electricity leaked into the water and made bubbles. That is also how I got the idea for the majano wand. I experimented with those bubbles and discovered all sorts of useless things. Everything on my tanks then was experimental as I had no money and some of my fish keeping enclosures were made out of wood or cement because I had to make them myself. They started out as turtle enclosures.
 
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Paul B

Paul B

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Very prophetic! Don't forget if your TDS doesn't read "0", you are a self-absorbed fish-bashing narcissistic sociopathic monster.

Actually my TDS reads 8 or 9. That's another silly thing. It comes out of the tap at about 257 or so which is supposed to be bad. But if we get it down to single digits which is just about zero, that is considered bad and will grow hair algae. I have been washing my head with it for decades and I am still bald. :eek:
 

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Wonderful, this reads like a well crafted satire with the faint waft of truth emanating..from the box :D

Sometimes, after a while someone climbs outside of the box and in doing so trys to go against the fine folks inside the box. The people inside the box make fun of that person and say his (or her) Ideas can't work because it is just not done that way. If say that person uses a reverse undergravel filter, the laughter from inside the box will rise to a roar. If that person goes against biblical box knowledge and finds a way to keep fish healthy without quarantining, that roar will become a typhoon and the box will shake.

However, you forgot to mention that the denizens of the box have managed to build a trebuchet and are now flinging barrels of boiling oil over the ramparts ;)
 

Tautog

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I hate it when they fling oil over my house. I could use it to cook my flounders in.
Wow, flounders, that fish hasn't been in numbers in years, in fact, I think you're only allowed 1/day.
Thoughts like those show your age..........not a bad thing! Next week we're making square wheels. I remember years ago with my under gravel and power heads on top, always asking why this way, and not the other way. I'm glad you thought outside the box then, and now. Thank You Paul !
 
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Paul B

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I just re read this thread and noticed that it only had about 8 or 9 responses. That shows us how many of the hobbyists are still living inside the box.
I have been toying with the idea of posting my theory of how to keep fish healthy forever but it has to do with quarantining, or actually, not quaranting.
(I actually did post some of it but I don't like to argue) I am so far out of the box that most people can't even hear me any more but I think it still may be too soon and I would get banned from the site.
It really bothers us out of the box thinkers so see so many sick and dying fish which could so easily be prevented but it is a big part of fish forums. It is actually the thing that spurs the vast majority of threads on forums. If disease disappeared, there would be much less threads and that would be unfortunate because I like these forums. Forums provide a wealth of information especially to Noobs about fish compatibility, cycling, corals etc. Even "inside the box" thinkers can learn so much from forums like this one (which happens to be my favorite).
I no longer go on that big forum as so many people have left there. That is a shame because it used to be a real good place. Now there, you are not allowed to link to anything even if it is a scientific study which the Mods there say is gospel. But if you can 't link to a study, how are you supposed to find it?
This forum allows much more latitude to link to scientific studies which I like. I understand they don't want you to link to other forums as that is common sense. That would be like a Ford salesman telling you to go up the block to ask a question at a Nissan dealer.
I often get in trouble for my stance on quarantining, but lucky for me, my fish are very old and my tank is probably the longest running non crashed tank. That didn't come about last Tuesday. It took a little longer than that to get inside the minds of fish and see what makes them tick. I saw the light almost all in a single flash about how come some fish in some tanks never get sick. Like never. Many people, mostly inside the boxers, won't or can't grasp the concept that researchers and scientists all over the planet have discovered.
But this week the VA is studying me because they say I may have PTSD. If I do, maybe that is the reason I climbed out of that box. :rolleyes:
 

nervousmonkey

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Paul, I think that the reason why this thread has only had a few responses is simply because most of us do not know how to respond. You "grew up" outside the box, so never lived in it or had to crawl out of it, most of us on here grew up inside the box. I started my first salt water tank 20 years after you, in 1991, and after my tank crashed, onto the floor (literally, my homemade stand broke and my tank crashed onto the floor), I didn't revisit salt water again for years. College, first jobs, 20's life of fun, dating, marriage, etc.
So, hearing your ways of doing things is refreshing. We could all use your knowledge. I bet if you posted 10% of what you know about keeping salt water tanks, the entire forum would benefit. I would ask you to post your theory of keeping fish healthy without quarantine, and then to keep posting more ways of "Paul B reefing". It has worked for you for a long long time, and the ideas you have in your head should not go by the wayside for fear of arguing. I do not think anyone with any amount of sanity would argue with you. I agree that arguing about an idea is terrible, but posting what you know does not require a defense of your knowledge, just post, set and forget. 40 years and counting of reefing is quite definitive, for me at least, and I would say the entire forum would listen to you and try to emulate it. Not that we will get it right the first time, but that's what this hobby is about, learning ways of doing things that advance our hobby, advance our personal knowledge, advance our tanks and give an advantage to our forum. In regards to our forum here, please post Paul. We all listen and would benefit. That other big forum no longer has the new thought processes that R2R has, of which people like you are a big part.
Thank you for everything you do and have done Paul. You are in a class of your own. :eek: Keep cooking those flounder with the oil of the inside the box thinkers. :cool:
 
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Paul B

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Nervousmonkey. Thanks for posting. I actually have written about it quite a few times on this forum. I think you are correct. I skimmed through some of those threads and I only saw a few "almost" arguments, but no drag out fighting. So I stand corrected. Maybe I got that idea from that other forum. :D
But since I started all those other threads, I probably should not go into it too much here. (but I may just because I forget what I am doing all the time) :rolleyes:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-does-food-equate-to-health.233275/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/two-methodoligies-to-keep-a-reef-tank.226995/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/be-wary-of-rumors.190306/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/theories-before-i-forget-everything.164832/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/why-should-we-keep-fish-in-breeding-condition.140333/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i-do-not-give-saltwater-aquarium-advice.121619/
 
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Joey waid

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I enjoy your stance on fish keeping. Because of you I am buying fresh clams, shrimp and other marked down fresh seafood at Kroger. I also bought a diatom filter because of your thoughts too. People on here treat fish before there is anything to treat. It's like us taking antibiotics before we are sick so we don't get sick, what sence does that make?? Anyways thanks for all of your input... I hope to get my first super model!!
 

nervousmonkey

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Nervousmonkey. Thanks for posting. I actually have written about it quite a few times on this forum. I think you are correct. I skimmed through some of those threads and I only saw a few "almost" arguments, but no drag out fighting. So I stand corrected. Maybe I got that idea from that other forum. :D
But since I started all those other threads, I probably should not go into it too much here. (but I may just because I forget what I am doing all the time) :rolleyes:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-does-food-equate-to-health.233275/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/two-methodoligies-to-keep-a-reef-tank.226995/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/be-wary-of-rumors.190306/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/theories-before-i-forget-everything.164832/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/why-should-we-keep-fish-in-breeding-condition.140333/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/i-do-not-give-saltwater-aquarium-advice.121619/

Man, those are great articles Paul!!! Thank you for listing them here all in one place! I'll do a search and see what other pieces of Paul magic I can pull up. I get you completely on references, although you almost always reference yourself anyway, as in pictures of, identification of, and autopsy of a copperband, or the stories you tell about how you arrived at the conclusions that you have drawn. Telling and showing people the way you feed your mandarins. So references are pretty unnecessary. I understand exactly what you are saying, sometimes my implementation of your ideas requires multiple readings (glued stocking to mandarin food lid before reading instructions. My stupidity)., but everything you talk about makes perfect sense if one thinks about it.
The more you talk, the more I learn my friend! Thanks again!
Lloyd T.
 
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Paul B

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Brew12

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Paul, I love your take on reefkeeping. If I lived by the ocean I believe I would try to follow your lead.

I see two problems with the way you keep your aquarium that would make it difficult for others to follow.

First, you had years of experience before you got to where nutrition and adaption mattered. You kept pennies in your tank! There are plenty of us that are new to reefkeeping that would not be able to mimic your success.

Second, your tank looks like the ocean. You and I have been scuba diving and know what the ocean looks like. It looks nothing like the show piece aquariums that are so popular today. I just don't see how you can maintain the pristine (ie. sterile) aquariums healthy enough to allow fish to develop healthy immune systems. I don't see how people wanting these "cleaner than the ocean" systems can go any other route than chemical treatments of everything that goes into the tank.
 

Just grow it: Have you ever added CO2 to your reef tank?

  • I currently use a CO2 with my reef tank.

    Votes: 8 6.3%
  • I don’t currently use CO2 with my reef tank, but I have in the past.

    Votes: 5 3.9%
  • I have never used CO2 with my reef tank, but I plan to in the future.

    Votes: 6 4.7%
  • I have never used CO2 with my reef tank and have no plans to in the future.

    Votes: 103 80.5%
  • Other.

    Votes: 6 4.7%
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