This is what I've dreamed of for so long! Testing for microbes in our tanks!

[Reefahholic]

I haven’t read this entire thread yet, but are there a few bacterial products that are recommended over others if the bacteria count is low?

I use some of Dr. Tim’s products from time to time and have noticed a big difference.

 

[rkpetersen]

I haven’t read this entire thread yet, but are there a few bacterial products that are recommended over others if the bacteria count is low?

That'll be the next frontier - bacterial products tailored to address specific deficiencies in your microbial ecosystem.

 

[Reefahholic]

That'll be the next frontier - bacterial products tailored to address specific deficiencies in your microbial ecosystem.

I’d be interested to see a few people test different bacterial products on deficient systems in efforts to find the most beneficial product. My gut tells me that Dr. Tim’s will be sitting at the top.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

I am thinking probidio will win by a long shot.

 

[Reefahholic]

I am thinking probidio will win by a long shot.

I know a few people using it. I've never tired it. What product of Dr. Tim's would you say it resembles?

 

[Reesj]

No one got any new results to post so far?

 

[rkpetersen]

I tried Prodibio for awhile; it didn't do anything that it claimed it would.

 

[Flippers4pups]

That'll be the next frontier - bacterial products tailored to address specific deficiencies in your microbial ecosystem.

Hypothetically this could be the next step. For now having a baseline understanding of what's in our systems and understanding what is a healthy ecosystem based on bacteria is the first step.

I truly believe also that using probiotics in frozen food may have an impact on these bacteria strains. More research needs to be done in this area.

@AquaBiomics, Eli, I've asked this question already and I guess I'll ask it again, would it be beneficial to understand if those of us that have sent in samples also disclosed if they used UV or ozone in their systems? On the surface I would think not, but I wonder if they truly have the ability to be able to lower the bacterial strains that are being sampled. Numbers wise.

 

[taricha]

Eli, I've asked this question already and I guess I'll ask it again, would it be beneficial to understand if those of us that have sent in samples also disclosed if they used UV or ozone in their systems? On the surface I would think not, but I wonder if they truly have the ability to be able to lower the bacterial strains that are being sampled. Numbers wise.

I'll state my opinion this way.
We use a bunch of things with the intention of shaping the number or composition of the bacterial assembly.
Now we know that the bacterial assembly actually does change a lot from one tank to another.
Now do A and B actually connect?

 

[lexinverts]

@AquaBiomics, Eli, I've asked this question already and I guess I'll ask it again, would it be beneficial to understand if those of us that have sent in samples also disclosed if they used UV or ozone in their systems? On the surface I would think not, but I wonder if they truly have the ability to be able to lower the bacterial strains that are being sampled. Numbers wise.

Good idea.
I think he should add that to the survey you fill out when you register your sample.

 

[AquaBiomics]

@AquaBiomics, Eli, I've asked this question already and I guess I'll ask it again, would it be beneficial to understand if those of us that have sent in samples also disclosed if they used UV or ozone in their systems? On the surface I would think not, but I wonder if they truly have the ability to be able to lower the bacterial strains that are being sampled. Numbers wise.

I did include a question on the sample registration about UV sterilizers. I didn't include ozone, since it seems to me few people use it these days. But I will add it to the registration form. If more than one person in the DB is using it, we benefit from including it on the form. Thanks for the suggestion!

I want to also answer more broadly. Basically there are two ways we can learn how to adjust the microbiome in our tanks: #1. Controlled experiments; and #2. Testing for associations in the database.

Option #1 is the ideal because we can include proper controls. It doesnt take as many tanks to show an effect conclusively. This can move quickly... BUT we have to know what to test... and each experiment takes up time and space.

Option #2 offers the opportunity to test multiple things at once. What is the effect of vodka dosing? Algal turf skimmers? Low salinity? etc. BUT this approach requires a much higher sample size to find any statistically significant effects. It will take us a while to build up enough samples in the database to find these effects. So this is a longer term prospect.

The quickest route for the community to learn what all these things do to our tanks microbial communities will be for hobbyists to run the experiments and send me the samples for testing, then share your findings with the community. Collectively, in the community, we have a lot of tanks, a lot of expertise, and a lot of questions.

Its a little known fact that most biologists who publish papers in genomics or microbiomics dont actually test the samples themselves. They run the experiments, and outsource the sample prep and sequencing to facilities that provide this service. I think the same model can be productive here. And I think it is the fastest route for the community to learn what UV, ozone, vodka, foods with unspecified probiotics, bacteria in a bottle, or any other new product actually does to our tanks.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

I reached out to Eli about testing some 20 gallon tanks that have only been started with bacteria in a bottle formulations.

Exact same tanks, exact same conditions, and he would test the results.

Any suggestions on bacteria to test?
I am thinking Tim's one and only, stability, and biospira.

Any others? Maybe drop one off the list and sub another? I only have 3 empty 20 gallon tanks.

 

[Reesj]

I reached out to Eli about testing some 20 gallon tanks that have only been started with bacteria in a bottle formulations.

Exact same tanks, exact same conditions, and he would test the results.

Any suggestions on bacteria to test?
I am thinking Tim's one and only, stability, and biospira.

Any others? Maybe drop one off the list and sub another? I only have 3 empty 20 gallon tanks.

The test would be meaningless is we testing ony after a short while of adding the bottles.
This would be obviously nice if we setup systems in ideal conditions (Exact same sand, Same seterile rocks and sand, same flow lights). Then let it mature with addition of small fish or two and test after 2 months time or so.
If you doing also please get one of the chineese bacteria in a bottle as well. (quite common throught the world for fraction of cost)

 

[dragon99]

The test would be meaningless is we testing ony after a short while of adding the bottles.
This would be obviously nice if we setup systems in ideal conditions (Exact same sand, Same seterile rocks and sand, same flow lights). Then let it mature with addition of small fish or two and test after 2 months time or so.
If you doing also please get one of the chineese bacteria in a bottle as well. (quite common throught the world for fraction of cost)

LIke this?

 

[Reesj]

LIke this?

More like this.

What I used to jump start my aquarium and add the 1st batch of fish in 1 week.

 

[AquaBiomics]

The test would be meaningless is we testing ony after a short while of adding the bottles.
This would be obviously nice if we setup systems in ideal conditions (Exact same sand, Same seterile rocks and sand, same flow lights). Then let it mature with addition of small fish or two and test after 2 months time or so.
If you doing also please get one of the chineese bacteria in a bottle as well. (quite common throught the world for fraction of cost)

When to sample is a good question. A sample shortly after adding the bacteria would be valuable to see what is actually being added. A sample later (perhaps a couple days) would show what sticks around in the community. I think the latter is more important, and the former may contribute to a false sense that the tank is cycled.

I have run some of these experiments myself and am still working on the reports. Processing all these samples has been keeping me busy in the lab

But here is what I will say for now -- From a microbiological standpoint I can only recommend that if someone is starting a tank, unless it is for an experiment like pdxmonkeyboy's, they should use the absolute best live rock they can find, and nothing else. Based on the results so far, I see no evidence that a tank started with dry rock achieves a similar community as a live rock tank or a mature reef tank on any kind of reasonable time scale. Or any evidence that bottled bacteria make any difference in this regard.

I look forward to seeing more experiments like this!

 

[tripdad]

But here is what I will say for now -- From a microbiological standpoint I can only recommend that if someone is starting a tank, unless it is for an experiment like pdxmonkeyboy's, they should use the absolute best live rock they can find, and nothing else. Based on the results so far, I see no evidence that a tank started with dry rock achieves a similar community as a live rock tank or a mature reef tank on any kind of reasonable time scale. Or any evidence that bottled bacteria make any difference in this regard.

I look forward to seeing more experiments like this!

This leans toward supporting the thought that we have lost a degree of success since we have migrated away from real live rock start ups. I have thought after two rough dry rock start ups that it was way easier 20 years ago with top quality live rock. Thanks for what your doing for the hobby. Time will tell it's ultimate value but I'm a believer that all knowledge is good.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

The test would be meaningless is we testing ony after a short while of adding the bottles.
This would be obviously nice if we setup systems in ideal conditions (Exact same sand, Same seterile rocks and sand, same flow lights). Then let it mature with addition of small fish or two and test after 2 months time or so.
If you doing also please get one of the chineese bacteria in a bottle as well. (quite common throught the world for fraction of cost)

Dude harsh.
If that is the reaction it would get I will happily save the time and money.

 

[Reesj]

Dude harsh.
If that is the reaction it would get I will happily save the time and money.

Sorry I don't understand why you feel so..
Because @AquaBiomics already stated that he has many tanks setup 1 inch away and they have astly diffrent bacteria counts and results, due to the fact of small changes in rocks or sand etc..

Also I don't think most of the bacteria we add from bottles servive long or even medium term.
Ofc if people send a sample right after adding one of the bacteria bottles he will get the highest diversity score by 10x. Although I dobt it will have much value to it.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Your preliminary findings on live rock vs. bottles makes me want to send a sample when i finally use the dry rock that has been cycling in the bay behind my house for the last 6 months lol.

@AquaBiomics
Can your testing method also reveal the bacterial makeup of multicellular organisms included in a sample? As an example Holospora in some paramecium.