This is what I've dreamed of for so long! Testing for microbes in our tanks!

[AquaBiomics]

My gut feeling is that (again unless he has data to the contrary) - and data as to how reproducible the tests are depending on the factors I already mentioned - I don't know what to make of a report based on a single test from a single water area.

Sampling is important to think about. The idea of replicate samples from the same tank is not unreasonable at all. For some kinds of measurements, it's critical. Of course it increases costs, so the question becomes, does it provide enough benefit for the cost, in this test?

The importance of replication depends on the variation between replicates.

In this post, I showed how similar two samples from the same tank are (A1 and A2). Really, really similar. And this makes sense - the water is well mixed, and we pull a large volume from it. (It would have been easier and cheaper to sample 5 ml instead of 60 ml..) So we expect that two replicate samples will be similar, and observe this. For the same reasons, a single sample is typically used for ICP analysis, right?

Don't get me wrong. Replication is always valuable. Given unlimited resources, measure everything half a dozen times. But in a world of limited resources we focus replication on the levels that will vary most.

Since multiple samples drawn at the same time are very similar, I think it makes the most sense to sample repeatedly over time or before and after a change, rather than spending these resources on getting a really really precise estimate of the community at a single point in time.

 

[Bills beginning]

I am truly sorry to hear some of the bickering that is going on this thread. Discussion and looking at different views is most important and as a new comer to starting to set up a new system it is most beneficial to have information that would help me to be successful. I am encouraged that we are capable to start to have more of an understanding of the biological processes that may and will help the novice to be able to produce a viable solution to startups and sustainability of our systems. The knowledge that can be shared is most beneficial to our inhabitants and to all experienced and inexperienced hobbyists that would like to contribute .

 

[AquaBiomics]

There is probably vibrio in every tank. It does not always cause a problem - I was only saying that if it happens to be found - it doesnt need to be eliminated unless there is a disease

You're right. Bacteria in the genus Vibrio were present in every tank we sampled, and not at trivial levels (0.7 - 11% of the community). None of these matched the species that have been shown to act as coral pathogens (including V. coralliilyticus, V. harveyi, V. shiloi, or V. proteolyticus). But we know so little about coral pathogens.

90% of the Vibrio community were unidentified species. (Which is to say, they matched sequences that the curators of the GreenGenes database identified as being Vibrio, but not one of the known species of Vibrio.)

9% of the Vibrio community was V. fortis, and 1% was V. rumoiensis. There is one report linking V. fortis to disease in seahorses. I don't see any evidence either is associated with coral diseases but it may exist.

That unidentified Vibrio community... considering how many of the known Vibrios are pathogens, I think its highly likely there are undescribed pathogens lurking in this pool of Vibrios... in every tank.

 

[MnFish1]

You're right. Bacteria in the genus Vibrio were present in every tank we sampled, and not at trivial levels (0.7 - 11% of the community). None of these matched the species that have been shown to act as coral pathogens (including V. coralliilyticus, V. harveyi, V. shiloi, or V. proteolyticus). But we know so little about coral pathogens.

90% of the Vibrio community were unidentified species. (Which is to say, they matched sequences that the curators of the GreenGenes database identified as being Vibrio, but not one of the known species of Vibrio.)

9% of the Vibrio community was V. fortis, and 1% was V. rumoiensis. There is one report linking V. fortis to disease in seahorses. I don't see any evidence either is associated with coral diseases but it may exist.

That unidentified Vibrio community... considering how many of the known Vibrios are pathogens, I think its highly likely there are undescribed pathogens lurking in this pool of Vibrios... in every tank.

Thats interesting - and either means you're not sampling in the right places - or more interestingly - that perhaps the vibrio people think cause coral disease 'do not' (since pathogenic strains were found in none of the sampled tanks)?

 

[AquaBiomics]

Well, I think its also a fully believable result that none of the tanks had coral pathogens present. No one reported a tank crash; everyone reported most or all livestock were healthy. A few noted some RTN or STN but no tank-wide problems. Maybe there just arent any coral pathogens among Vibrios in the tanks.

I was just chiming in to say that there are absolutely a lot of Vibrio in our tanks

 

[MnFish1]

Well, I think its also a fully believable result that none of the tanks had coral pathogens present. No one reported a tank crash; everyone reported most or all livestock were healthy. A few noted some RTN or STN but no tank-wide problems. Maybe there just arent any coral pathogens among Vibrios in the tanks.

I was just chiming in to say that there are absolutely a lot of Vibrio in our tanks

Yes - I know - I was just suggesting that as you said - its unclear which pathogens are actually causing these diseases. I would also assume you wouldn't recommend treating tanks with antibiotic to remove those types of bacteria IF there was NO disease present. PS - Did you ever see vibrio vulnificans

 

[Flippers4pups]

Interesting lecture on coral diseases:

 

[Flippers4pups]

Along with this, I believe it is valuable information on the effects of UV sterilizers in this. Before the use of one and during/after testing!

I for one would love to see the effects, good or bad! Also the use of ozone!

 

[Quietman]

I've been pondering this thread since it started without comment and just watching the discussion. So thought I'd add some random thoughts of my own. It is a hobbyist forum after all.

In an ideal world, there's hard data on which organisms and combinations under various parameters have proven results so hobbyists can make decisions. Otherwise it's just raw data without an ability to make an informed decision on. Happens all the time and it's not going to stop as that kind of 'test results-action required" methodology is expensive to develop and we have to rely on implied results from a very limited sample. Just how it is in hobby land. Products are tested and proper usage is done by the consumer (unless it's medical or food additives of course). Not bad thing either...it's taken time but the hobby continues to improve because of hobbyists and their efforts and sometimes these result in great business models that are highly successful.

This appears to be a great product for marketing and sales and creating another 'sub-industry' of additives. First there's the business of testing, then when the tests show a 'decline' or 'less than average tank' population of some indicator for a certain bacteria that's deemed critical, then there will be a product available to address that perceived imbalance.

Nothing wrong with any of the above (and I am a firm believer in entrepreneurial ventures), and it will lead to either a better and easier experience for the hobbyist, or it will become another 'sciencey' fad that took too much money for little too value and the product/service will be less than successful.

Another tool in our bags is useful and welcome and I wish everyone involved success because stepping out there and trying is important and full of risk but has potential for all of us to be more successful in the hobby. Good luck!

 

[MnFish1]

Interesting lecture on coral diseases:

This is a great lecture - the paper he published with the data from this was widely discussed on a couple other threads concerning a 'novel product' - that was designed to kill philaster lucinda - perhaps you remember those threads

 

[Flippers4pups]

This is a great lecture - the paper he published with the data from this was widely discussed on a couple other threads concerning a 'novel product' - that was designed to kill philaster lucinda - perhaps you remember those threads

Yes I remember. It wasn't widely accepted, partly due to lack of transparency.

From Sweet's findings, ampicillin would be a direction to deal with RTN. I've not heard or seen anyone follow up on testing this method of approach at the hobby level. Yet.

 

[Flippers4pups]

As stated by him, wide scale dosing in a tank would result in a good/bad outcome. One would need to isolate a coral that's infected and treat it outside a display tank.

 

[MnFish1]

As stated by him, wide scale dosing in a tank would result in a good/bad outcome. One would need to isolate a coral that's infected and treat it outside a display tank.

Yes - he also stated that he isn not recommending antibiotic treating coral (especially in a whole tank) - because of the risk of a superbug that could spread and wipe out coral in the wild (Not sure how this would happen) - but - he is now going to study a probiotic approach to helping coral stave off the disease (which I thought was interesting). I also thought that it was interesting (and kind of funny) - the 'philaster lucinda' is named after his wife lucinda..

 

[Flippers4pups]

Yes - he also stated that he isn not recommending antibiotic treating coral (especially in a whole tank) - because of the risk of a superbug that could spread and wipe out coral in the wild (Not sure how this would happen) - but - he is now going to study a probiotic approach to helping coral stave off the disease (which I thought was interesting). I also thought that it was interesting (and kind of funny) - the 'philaster lucinda' is named after his wife lucinda..

Naming a pathogen (bug) after my wife.... not sure how she would take that! bright side, she will always be remembered in the scientific community for its name! LOL!

I assuming that a water change would send the antibiotics eventually into the ocean......

I use LRS foods exclusively in my system. Larry adds probiotics to the food. This food is broadcast in my system. Corals are definitely ingesting this. Is this helping, not only my fish, but corals?

Sweet's findings on this approach is highly anticipated!

I posed this question of using probiotics in our systems not long ago in a thread.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Probiotics added directly to our water?

Okay, he's my hypothesis. Larry at LRS adds probiotics to his frozen foods. It's added for fish immune systems. Makes sense, right? Loaded with good bacteria. Okay, coral are animals too. So why not dose probiotics directly to our water for coral health? Studies show coral respond well with...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Phycodurus]

Eli, I respectfully tip my hat to you & yr team! I’ve always been fascinated with the microbiome in our tanks beyond the base resident Nitrosomonas & Nitrobacter. This is really cool.

For frustrated Tridacna clam owners, will this test be able to identify Perkinsus protists? Even verifying an absence of Perkinsus in the tank would help with clam husbandry & trouble-shooting.

Looking forward to future updates & news!

 

[Flippers4pups]

I'm going to get a test from @AquaBiomics! I want to know what's in my system! I'll post the results here for everyone to see!

I want my findings to help others down the road!

 

[Scott Campbell]

Will also purchase a couple of tests. Mostly because of Eli's thoughtful responses in this thread. (In remarkable contrast to the rather unhinged Prime Coral threads....) And I will also post my results.

 

[Flippers4pups]

Order placed! Can't wait to see what's lurking in my tank! Lol

 

[Flippers4pups]

Bumping this thread to get more of the members aware and more eyes on it!