Tin issue solved!!

[David Zencak]

Please, keep in mind that I did all ICP test with RO/DI water 0 conductivity. Just placing 1 meter of tube into the bucket of water for 24h was enough to measure such a high level of tin that it would kill all SPS corals in any tank.

It may not leach into salt water.

I repeated the tests with certified tube for drinking water and there was no trace of tin. It does not mean that all certified tubes has not tin of course.

I think that every SPS tank should be tested using ICP from time to time. If you have no tin, do not panic...if you have, check tubing, it is simple as that

 

[Dr. Jim]

Now I'm thinking that leaching from plastics may be the source of my own Tin problems... since Tin is the only metal elevated in my tank.

Can anyone comment on whether the Braided Flexible Tubing linked below leaches Tin? This is what I've used for my return piping as well as transfer tubing from my saltwater mixing station.

Braided Vinyl Tubing (Sold by the Foot)

Reinforced braided vinyl tube is far superior to normal vinyl tubing because it seals better on barbed fittings and is extremely kink resistant. Very popular for the saltwater aquarium hobbyists. Extremely Kink resistant Made from non-toxic PVC Reinforced with spiraled polyester yarn to reduce...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Also, I'm wondering about the small air pump tubing that I have used on my dosing pump?

Does SILICONE tubing also contain Tin???

Thanks everyone.

That braided tubing looks identical to the tubing from Lowes that I wrote about. I don't know for sure if it is identical, but I'm guessing it is very similar if not the same. I mentioned my thread on plastic tubing earlier in your thread, but here it is again:

Tin Leaching from Common Plastic Tubing and a Very Inert Tubing that I Found

I'm sure many of you are tired of me posting about tin leaching from plastic, but for those having "tin problems" this might be helpful. Although I found tin leaching from many plastic products, I found that plastic tubing may be the worst culprit. I performed "soak tests" where I would soak...

www.reef2reef.com

Regarding silicon tubing: I never tested it with ICP, but I would guess that the minute volumes that pass through it for dosing purposes would cause a negligible rise in tin, even if the silicon tubing contains tin.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

Please, keep in mind that I did all ICP test with RO/DI water 0 conductivity. Just placing 1 meter of tube into the bucket of water for 24h was enough to measure such a high level of tin that it would kill all SPS corals in any tank.

It may not leach into salt water.

I repeated the tests with certified tube for drinking water and there was no trace of tin. It does not mean that all certified tubes has not tin of course.

I think that every SPS tank should be tested using ICP from time to time. If you have no tin, do not panic...if you have, check tubing, it is simple as that

My R/O iususally comes out 00 when I do my ATI ICP, next time I send one out I’ll put my WC hose in a bucket of R/O and send that water instead. I will report my results. Perhaps others can do the same to get a few more confirmations. Also, did your tin issues disappear?

 

[David Zencak]

My R/O iususally comes out 00 when I do my ATI ICP, next time I send one out I’ll put my WC hose in a bucket of R/O and send that water instead. I will report my results. Perhaps others can do the same to get a few more confirmations. Also, did your tin issues disappear?

Yes, my issue is gone, right after I replaced this particular hose. I am using silicon tube now.

 

[Fishfreak2009]

And this is why I like hard plumbing everything with good old white PVC. Not worth the worry about hoses leaching. Even when I had a bunch of freshwater cichlid and predator tanks and ran a hose directly from the sink for water changes (I have well water), I always used RV drinking water hoses which are "guaranteed" safe and not supposed to leach anything.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Now I'm thinking that leaching from plastics may be the source of my own Tin problems... since Tin is the only metal elevated in my tank.

Can anyone comment on whether the Braided Flexible Tubing linked below leaches Tin? This is what I've used for my return piping as well as transfer tubing from my saltwater mixing station.

Braided Vinyl Tubing (Sold by the Foot)

Reinforced braided vinyl tube is far superior to normal vinyl tubing because it seals better on barbed fittings and is extremely kink resistant. Very popular for the saltwater aquarium hobbyists. Extremely Kink resistant Made from non-toxic PVC Reinforced with spiraled polyester yarn to reduce...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Also, I'm wondering about the small air pump tubing that I have used on my dosing pump?

Does SILICONE tubing also contain Tin???

Thanks everyone.

I do not think it likely that you will get answers because suppliers of tubing do not generally state the components in the material.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That braided tubing looks identical to the tubing from Lowes that I wrote about. I don't know for sure if it is identical, but I'm guessing it is very similar if not the same. I mentioned my thread on plastic tubing earlier in your thread, but here it is again:

Tin Leaching from Common Plastic Tubing and a Very Inert Tubing that I Found

I'm sure many of you are tired of me posting about tin leaching from plastic, but for those having "tin problems" this might be helpful. Although I found tin leaching from many plastic products, I found that plastic tubing may be the worst culprit. I performed "soak tests" where I would soak...

www.reef2reef.com

Regarding silicon tubing: I never tested it with ICP, but I would guess that the minute volumes that pass through it for dosing purposes would cause a negligible rise in tin, even if the silicon tubing contains tin.

Personally, i think the tubing interior surface area and the chemical nature of the liquid are the likely significant factors for quantity of tin release (if present), not the volume passing through.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

And this is why I like hard plumbing everything with good old white PVC. Not worth the worry about hoses leaching. Even when I had a bunch of freshwater cichlid and predator tanks and ran a hose directly from the sink for water changes (I have well water), I always used RV drinking water hoses which are "guaranteed" safe and not supposed to leach anything.

Sadly, that hypothesis is likely incorrect. "Safe" and "no tin"
are different.

Tin is approved for use in plastics such as PVC for both medical devices and potable water.

http://www.harwick.com/files/tds/ADVASTAB_TM-3412.PDF

High Efficiency Methyltin Heat Stabilizer
. Fully approved uses in potable water pressure pipes under the PPI-PVC

 

[TexasReefer82]

I'm currently running a small experiment to determine a few possible sources of my Tin. I will utilize ATI ICP testing to measure:
1) the saltwater that has been sitting for a few months in my mixing station (which consists of a roto-mold plastic tank as well as the braided tubing from BRS that I linked above.
2) a 1/2 cup sample of RODI soaked for at least 24 hours with a new/unused 8" section of the blue flexible airline tubing that I was using for my dosing pumps.

Based on previous ICP test results... I'm expecting (and hoping) the saltwater to come back at zero - which would exonerate the roto-mold containers and the braided tubing. And I'm also expecting the airline tubing soak sample to come back with significant Tin.

I will report the results here.

 

[TexasReefer82]

Personally, i think the tubing interior surface area and the chemical nature of the liquid are the likely significant factors for quantity of tin release (if present), not the volume passing through.

Randy, I have an interesting bit of information relating to the volume passing through...

One of the things that I was dosing was a gel-type coral food from CoralVue called EasySPS and EasyBooster. these foods are gel and the input to the tank is required to be fed directly into a pump intake so that the thick gel is mixed and dispersed - otherwise the gel sinks to the bottom.

I had my same blue airline tubing feeding these - and the last few inches were immersed in water and wedged into the cage over my return pump intake. Upon removing this tubing the other day I noticed that that last few inches that had been under water was quite stiff, whereas the rest of the tubing (not immersed) was still flexible.

Could this stiffness have been caused by the plasticizer being leached out by the saltwater? ...especially in this constantly high flow area by the pump intake? If so, I imagine the same leaching is occurring in all the tubing but at a much slower rate given the much slower flow of the dosing pump.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, I have an interesting bit of information relating to the volume passing through...

One of the things that I was dosing was a gel-type coral food from CoralVue called EasySPS and EasyBooster. these foods are gel and the input to the tank is required to be fed directly into a pump intake so that the thick gel is mixed and dispersed - otherwise the gel sinks to the bottom.

I had my same blue airline tubing feeding these - and the last few inches were immersed in water and wedged into the cage over my return pump intake. Upon removing this tubing the other day I noticed that that last few inches that had been under water was quite stiff, whereas the rest of the tubing (not immersed) was still flexible.

Could this stiffness have been caused by the plasticizer being leached out by the saltwater? ...especially in this constantly high flow area by the pump intake? If so, I imagine the same leaching is occurring in all the tubing but at a much slower rate given the much slower flow of the dosing pump.

Yes, whitening and stiffening can mean release of organic materials from the tubing. Doesn't mean its tin as there are lots of materials used to make tubing flexible and clear, but something is likely being released.

 

[TexasReefer82]

I'm currently running a small experiment to determine a few possible sources of my Tin. I will utilize ATI ICP testing to measure:
1) the saltwater that has been sitting for a few months in my mixing station (which consists of a roto-mold plastic tank as well as the braided tubing from BRS that I linked above.
2) a 1/2 cup sample of RODI soaked for at least 24 hours with a new/unused 8" section of the blue flexible airline tubing that I was using for my dosing pumps.

Based on previous ICP test results... I'm expecting (and hoping) the saltwater to come back at zero - which would exonerate the roto-mold containers and the braided tubing. And I'm also expecting the airline tubing soak sample to come back with significant Tin.

I will report the results here.

CONFIRMED! The results from the ICP came back yesterday and exactly confirmed my suspicions... the blue airline tubing on my dosing pumps leaches tin!

1) the new saltwater that sat for months in my mixing container in contact with a rotomold tank, braided flexible tubing (BRS), and orange pvc with schedule 80 fittings (BRS)... Results: zero tin.

2) the 8" long piece of blue airline tubing that soaked in a half cup of RODI water for 48 hours... Results: 5130 ug/l tin!!!

This water also came back with the following contaminants that were not detected in prior analysis of the RODI water....
Silicon 147 ug/l
Copper 3.07
Zinc 18.89

I never thought it would be this high... I was thinking I might see a few ug/l... But 5000+!!! Wow!

All dosing pump tubing has been replaced with RedSea brand tubing. This material appears to me to be made of rubber (though the packaging doesn't say). I have confirmed from others who use this tubing that they have zero tin on their icp tests, so hopefully my Tin problems are solved.

 

[((FORDTECH))]

Following this as it is very Interesting. I am having issue with only aluminum being high in tank and silicon in rodi only being high and just trying to gather some information.

 

[Freenow54]

I was fighting with tin for last 6 months. SPS were slowly dying, all home tested water parameter were fine. ICP confirmed high level of tin several times - 0.17mg/l, 170 ppb. I bought new thermometer sensor, new heater, new pump…corals kept dying, new ICP tests proved high level of tin. I decided to change 40% of water volume every two weeks. No improvement. I discussed possible causes with local fish store, people in local forums, read all articles about tin, no help. I had bad dreams, being very tired from this hobby. Then I met a friend who is working in chemical industry and he introduced me to chemist doing a research for large chemical factory using their own icp machine! In my home town! First, we did 5 tests to isolate the major source. We tested RO, new salt water, balling parts, tank water…tin was in fresh salt water and in the tank of course. Then we did another set of tests for all items used in the process of new salt water preparation - white plastic 50l barrel, eheim pump, hose, salt…all soaked in the bucket with about 3 liters of RO water. The test results were very clear - my 6 month nightmare was caused by 130cm of green hose!!! Tin is used as a softener in PVC. It was the hose that came with

aquarium syphon gravel cleaner​

I hope my story can help many of you!

Wow. Just when you think you know a lot. Thanks for sharing. Absolutely amazing. I was talking to a guy that wants encouragement to stay in the hobby and he said things going wrong why would I change the water? You are a descendant of Sherlock Holmes. There is a chemist on this site send it to him.

 

[gbroadbridge]

CONFIRMED! The results from the ICP came back yesterday and exactly confirmed my suspicions... the blue airline tubing on my dosing pumps leaches tin!

1) the new saltwater that sat for months in my mixing container in contact with a rotomold tank, braided flexible tubing (BRS), and orange pvc with schedule 80 fittings (BRS)... Results: zero tin.

2) the 8" long piece of blue airline tubing that soaked in a half cup of RODI water for 48 hours... Results: 5130 ug/l tin!!!

This water also came back with the following contaminants that were not detected in prior analysis of the RODI water....
Silicon 147 ug/l
Copper 3.07
Zinc 18.89

I never thought it would be this high... I was thinking I might see a few ug/l... But 5000+!!! Wow!

All dosing pump tubing has been replaced with RedSea brand tubing. This material appears to me to be made of rubber (though the packaging doesn't say). I have confirmed from others who use this tubing that they have zero tin on their icp tests, so hopefully my Tin problems are solved.

I don't see how 8" of tubing could result in that much tin in that time period.

Contamination I would expect to have come from elsewhere.

Interested in what others think.

 

[TexasReefer82]

I don't see how 8" of tubing could result in that much tin in that time period.

Contamination I would expect to have come from elsewhere.

Interested in what others think.

I was as surprised as you!

The only possible source of contamination would be the container... A glass Ball-Mason jar that I've had for a long time and has been used and washed multiple times.

These glass jars are made using a mold, not floated on molten tin like plate glass. So I don't suspect any contamination.

 

[Dr. Jim]

CONFIRMED! The results from the ICP came back yesterday and exactly confirmed my suspicions... the blue airline tubing on my dosing pumps leaches tin!

What brand of blue tubing was it?

That value seems extremely high for just soaking for 2 days with no flow thru it, but anything is possible. I know the ICP tests aren't cheap, but it sure would be interesting to see the results on a repeat test.

Interesting that your braided tubing was zero (for tin). Mine was sky high.

 

[PeterEde]

So the gist is DO NOT leave any hose in water for any length of time.
WE don't know what we can trust

 

[TexasReefer82]

What brand of blue tubing was it?

That value seems extremely high for just soaking for 2 days with no flow thru it, but anything is possible. I know the ICP tests aren't cheap, but it sure would be interesting to see the results on a repeat test.

Interesting that your braided tubing was zero (for tin). Mine was sky high.

I don't know the brand as I bought this tubing over 4 years ago and have since tossed the packaging. But it was definitely purchased at either Petco or PetSmart... Nothing unusual or obscure. I'll take a look next time I'm at the store.

I did swirl the jar a few times by hand over the course of the 48 hours. But other than than no circulation or other stress was applied to the sample.

The next time I run an ICP for my tank, as a control, I will let a half cup of RODI water sit in the same glass container for 48 hours (without the tubing) and send that in for the freshwater analysis to see how much tin the container imparts to the water.

As I recall your braided tubing was purchased from HD or Lowe's? Mine was ordered from BRS. Perhaps these tubing materials are not the same despite their similar appearance.

Attached is a photo of the jar and the 8" length of Airline tubing

 

[Dr. Jim]

I don't know the brand as I bought this tubing over 4 years ago and have since tossed the packaging. But it was definitely purchased at either Petco or PetSmart... Nothing unusual or obscure. I'll take a look next time I'm at the store.

I did swirl the jar a few times by hand over the course of the 48 hours. But other than than no circulation or other stress was applied to the sample.

The next time I run an ICP for my tank, as a control, I will let a half cup of RODI water sit in the same glass container for 48 hours (without the tubing) and send that in for the freshwater analysis to see how much tin the container imparts to the water.

As I recall your braided tubing was purchased from HD or Lowe's? Mine was ordered from BRS. Perhaps these tubing materials are not the same despite their similar appearance.
The next time I order from BRS, I will buy some of the braided tubing and test it (in the same manner that I tested the Home Depot tubing). I am very interested to learn if it the two tubings are that much different that one leaches zero tin. I hope that is the case because the Tygon tubing I found to be "tin free" is extremely expensive; however, I am a little skeptical that this will be the case.

I don't know the brand as I bought this tubing over 4 years ago and have since tossed the packaging. But it was definitely purchased at either Petco or PetSmart... Nothing unusual or obscure. I'll take a look next time I'm at the store.

I did swirl the jar a few times by hand over the course of the 48 hours. But other than than no circulation or other stress was applied to the sample.

The next time I run an ICP for my tank, as a control, I will let a half cup of RODI water sit in the same glass container for 48 hours (without the tubing) and send that in for the freshwater analysis to see how much tin the container imparts to the water.

As I recall your braided tubing was purchased from HD or Lowe's? Mine was ordered from BRS. Perhaps these tubing materials are not the same despite their similar appearance.

Attached is a photo of the jar and the 8" length of Airline tubing

The next time I order from BRS, I will buy some of the braided tubing and test it (in the same manner that I tested the Home Depot tubing). I am very interested to learn if it the two tubings are that much different that one leaches zero tin. I hope that is the case because the Tygon tubing I found to be "tin free" is extremely expensive; however, I am a little skeptical that this will be the case.