Tin issue solved!!

[Karen00]

Just to be clear, I do not think tin is used as a plasticizer or softener of plastic, I think it stabilizes the plastic against degradation.

I also do not think it is something done only for cheaper products.

That said, I do not know what tubing and plastics manufacturers use which products.

Thanks Randy! I was hoping you wouldn't say something like that. If it's used as a stabilizer then even high end brands might use it. Do you think if the tubing is left to soak for a couple weeks in water that would eliminate the tin?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks Randy! I was hoping you wouldn't say something like that. If it's used as a stabilizer then even high end brands might use it. Do you think if the tubing is left to soak for a couple weeks in water that would eliminate the tin?

It will reduce it, but I have no idea what time frame is needed for it to no longer release significant amounts.

Apparently, even food and medical grades of tubing do not avoid possible tin use:

Tinstab and Akcrostab Tin Stabilizers | Valtris Specialty Chemicals

Excellent Tin stabilizer products for rigid PVC and transparent film processing. Valtris offers a wide range of methyl tin stabilizers to satisfy your needs.

www.valtris.com

Tinstab and Akcrostab™ Tin Stabilizers
Full product range for transparent food/medical applications and building products

 

[Sorbi]

I used this hose only for mixing my new salt water. But the last ICP test was done in a way I left the hose in the bucket with RO water, no water movement, only for 24h and the water was deadly 100%!

Thanks for sharing. Perhaps I misunderstood something, but why do you need a hose for mixing of the salt water?

 

[Cory]

Thanks for the info! Fwiw iirx @Dr. Jim discovered that the green Eheim hose was the cause of his tin and coral death too! He also tested by icp. Great to have a second person confirming it.

 

[onlyfans]

Dang, that really sucks my friend. I'm really happy you figured it out though and thank you for posting.

I've been having weird algae culture crashes and am having a hard time figuring it out. I'll try tossing my PVC air lines in favor of silicone to see if it fixes my issue. Everything else is either glass, fired ceramic, or pure natural polyethylene and it all has been sanitized to the extreme. But this all started with a new bucket of TM pro reef salt... so, I suspect it may be the salt. It's also been mixing weird and leaving brown residue inside my mixing bucket. Anyone know if they have or honor some kind of warranty with their salt?

 

[gbroadbridge]

I honestly find it hard to believe that aquarium pvc tubing sold by reputable manufacturers would leak enough tin to be measurable within the measurement limits and measurement uncertainty of ICP. (As vague as they are)

Cheap stuff sold at Bunnings (in Australia) or home depot in the USA, which is not certified food grade, well, use at your peril.

You have thousands of bucks invested in fish and coral, and try to save $50 on tubing, really?

 

[Cory]

I honestly find it hard to believe that aquarium pvc tubing sold by reputable manufacturers would leak enough tin to be measurable within the measurement limits and measurement uncertainty of ICP. (As vague as they are)

Cheap stuff sold at Bunnings (in Australia) or home depot in the USA, which is not certified food grade, well, use at your peril.

You have thousands of bucks invested in fish and coral, and try to save $50 on tubing, really?

Its not all of them being reported its Eheims green tubing in particular. And Eheim is focused on freshwater not saltwater, so I wouldn't be surprised in tin considering tin wouldn't hurt much in freshwater.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Eheim is a reputable supplier.

do they state that that their tubing is suitable for reef tanks?.

 

[Dr. Jim]

You have thousands of bucks invested in fish and coral, and try to save $50 on tubing, really?

I think the issues are:

a) most reefers aren't aware that tin leaches from tubing
b) there aren't easy-to-find and reasonably priced alternatives. (It's not that we are trying to save money by buying the cheap stuff).

I wrote about a "safe" tubing that can be used, here:

Tin Leaching from Common Plastic Tubing and a Very Inert Tubing that I Found

I'm sure many of you are tired of me posting about tin leaching from plastic, but for those having "tin problems" this might be helpful. Although I found tin leaching from many plastic products, I found that plastic tubing may be the worst culprit. I performed "soak tests" where I would soak...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Wyvern]

Curious. I have several feet of Spa Flex tubing in my system, I sure hope there isn't something funny added in to make it soft.

I'm wondering if the green color has anything to do with Tin usage- a quick search online says that tin is used as a heat stabilizer in ridged PVC.

 

[Koty]

OK so now we that tin issues do occur. Does anyone knows what is the best mean to absorb it, such as the superfund-developed suff from TLS (tin however is not on the long list of adsorbed heavy metals)

 

[tigre44]

I would think that carbon would absorb tin and other metals?

 

[Koty]

Not that sure. I had carbon all the time and 1st icp had 20 somthing ppb tin

 

[Dr. Jim]

OK so now we that tin issues do occur. Does anyone knows what is the best mean to absorb it, such as the superfund-developed suff from TLS (tin however is not on the long list of adsorbed heavy metals)

From my limited "experiments" using ICP tests (but with no controls), I found that none of the following were effective for removing tin:

-carbon
-Polyfilters
-Metasorb
-Continuum Power Cleanse
-Sea Chem CupriSorb

I believe the only way is to find the source and remove it; then, do massive water changes. (Concentrate on "plastics" if tin is the only metal elevated).

 

[Cory]

The only thing that was measured to remove tin is growing macroalgae like caulerpa.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I honestly find it hard to believe that aquarium pvc tubing sold by reputable manufacturers would leak enough tin to be measurable within the measurement limits and measurement uncertainty of ICP. (As vague as they are)

Cheap stuff sold at Bunnings (in Australia) or home depot in the USA, which is not certified food grade, well, use at your peril.

You have thousands of bucks invested in fish and coral, and try to save $50 on tubing, really?

You are making a false assumption that tin is somehow a cheap ingredient that is not permitted in high quality potable water, food, and medical grade tubing.

That apparently is untrue:

Tinstab and Akcrostab Tin Stabilizers | Valtris Specialty Chemicals

Excellent Tin stabilizer products for rigid PVC and transparent film processing. Valtris offers a wide range of methyl tin stabilizers to satisfy your needs.

www.valtris.com

"Tinstab and Akcrostab™ Tin Stabilizers
Full product range for transparent food/medical applications and building products'

Tin stabilizer works for most pipe applications

Maintain quality while cutting purchasing and inventory costs; those are some of the advantages said to be offered by Thermolite 130 and 135 tin stabilizers, tw

www.plasticstoday.com

"Tin stabilizer works for most pipe applications"
"Both new grades have NSF and PPI provisional approval for potable water applications. —"

 

[gbroadbridge]

I am going to pump 1 million litres of red sea saltwater through 1 meter of aqua one green pipe, and I'm willing to bet there is no measurable tin at the end of the experiment.

not sure how i will measure it, but friends at UNSW will appreciate the challenge.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am going to pump 1 million litres of red sea saltwater through 1 meter of aqua one green pipe, and I'm willing to bet there is no measurable tin at the end of the experiment.

not sure how i will measure it, but friends at UNSW will appreciate the challenge.

The issue is time, not just the amount of seawater flow through. The organotin compounds will diffuse slowly through plastics. So even if you expose it to the entire ocean, it may still take many days or weeks or more to deplete the near surface layers of the plastic so that you do not still get significant levels coming out.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I am going to pump 1 million litres of red sea saltwater through 1 meter of aqua one green pipe, and I'm willing to bet there is no measurable tin at the end of the experiment.

not sure how i will measure it, but friends at UNSW will appreciate the challenge.

Are you "betting" that there will be zero tin because you think there will be no tin remaining in the pipe after the million L of flushing? Or, are you saying this because you don't believe the pipe will leach any tin at all?

In either case, I would take you up on that bet. In the first scenario, the pipe isn't lined with tin (like glass), but rather it is distributed throughout the thickness of the pipe so it shouldn't "wear away." In the latter scenario, I would be surprised if you can find a pipe that doesn't leach any tin. (I should follow this up by admitting that I don't really know what type of "pipe" you are using, but I'd guess that it isn't "tin-free.")

 

[TexasReefer82]

Now I'm thinking that leaching from plastics may be the source of my own Tin problems... since Tin is the only metal elevated in my tank.

Can anyone comment on whether the Braided Flexible Tubing linked below leaches Tin? This is what I've used for my return piping as well as transfer tubing from my saltwater mixing station.

Braided Vinyl Tubing (Sold by the Foot)

Reinforced braided vinyl tube is far superior to normal vinyl tubing because it seals better on barbed fittings and is extremely kink resistant. Very popular for the saltwater aquarium hobbyists. Extremely Kink resistant Made from non-toxic PVC Reinforced with spiraled polyester yarn to reduce...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Also, I'm wondering about the small air pump tubing that I have used on my dosing pump?

Does SILICONE tubing also contain Tin???

Thanks everyone.