To Treat, or not to Treat?

[tigé21v]

It's been years since I've added any fish to my system. I recently picked up a few to help with pest control.-
Six-line wrasses
Matted filefish
Lawnmower blenny
Magnificent foxface
Naso tang
I've had them in a QT tank for a week or so, just to give them a chance to settle in. S.G. is 1.020, same as the water they came from. Everyone seems to be doing fine, some seem to be eating more than others, but all are eating. No visible signs or actions of any sort of parasites/infections.
This is my first time trying to "do right". In the past I've always just floated and added the fish. I know (well, assuming) my tank has ich, insomuch as I've never treated for the prevention of ich in the past. That being said, I'm not in a position right now to rid my system of ich. But I'd really like to keep from introducing anything new into the system. (Velvet seems to be the latest and greatest craze.)
So, on with the questions so I can get this right...
Well, I'll start with one question, and see where it leads.

Should I just hold the fish in QT and only treat if I observe signs of disease, or go ahead and treat prophylactically?

TIA

 

[Humblefish]

I would just observe in QT for one month to be sure velvet doesn't rear it's ugly head.

If it does, you will need a bottle of copper. The tang & filefish are the ones to watch most closely for signs of parasites/worms.

Speaking of worms, might not be a bad idea to prophylactically treat with Prazipro: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/prazipro.247598/

 

[tigé21v]

HF,
Thanks for the reply.
Is one month enough time for velvet to show up, if there is any?
I picked up some chelated copper, All-in-One, and Focus in case they came in showing signs. Can I use the All-in-One to treat for parasites?

 

[tigé21v]

My apologies. It's not all-in-one. It's General Cure

 

[Maritimer]

General Cure is good stuff - Praziquantel (flukes) and Metronidazole (Brook, Uronema, some bacteria) in one powder, can be used in the water to treat externally, or bound to food with Seachem's "Focus" to treat for internal parasites.

~Bruce

 

[kalare]

I treat all fish prophylactically with chloroquine phosphate and powder praziquantel for 6 weeks. Both meds are easy on most fish (I believe some wrasses have a hard time with CP...maybe some others) and I'd rather not deal with a fish that could be hosting a parasite or two that has a strong immune system getting into my display and infecting one my more susceptible species of fish, like powder blue tang or other. I've had that happen to me twice before, and don't care to deal with it again.

I would recommend the same to anyone else who purchases fish.

 

[tigé21v]

That's what I'm on the fence about. Whether to wait and see, or go ahead and treat. I'd ate to be a month in and have something flare up, and then start to treat, in essence losing a month. But, at the same time, I don't want to stress the fish if is unnecessary.
I have coppersafe on hand, I thought I read CQ is extremely hard on all wrasses, and chelated copper the easiest.

 

[Humblefish]

Is one month enough time for velvet to show up, if there is any?

At the very least, a fish with velvet will show behavioral symptoms within 30 days of purchase:

• Reduced or complete loss of appetite.
• Heavy breathing, rubbing, flashing, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior (unfortunately velvet shares all these same symptoms with ich & gill flukes.)
• Swimming into the flow of a powerhead (unique to velvet).
• Acting reclusive (velvet causes fish to be sensitive to light).

I have coppersafe on hand, I thought I read CQ is extremely hard on all wrasses, and chelated copper the easiest.

Opinions vary on this. Some people actually seem to have the best success using Copper Power on wrassses. Like Coppersafe, it is a chelated copper product.

 

[4FordFamily]

I treat all incoming fish, as many fish can appear unaffected but then act like a Typhoid Mary in the new tank (wrasse particularly)

 

[tigé21v]

Thanks for the help, guys!

General Cure is good stuff - Praziquantel (flukes) and Metronidazole (Brook, Uronema, some bacteria) in one powder, can be used in the water to treat externally, or bound to food with Seachem's "Focus" to treat for internal parasites.

~Bruce

Should I treat both the externally and internally??

At the very least, a fish with velvet will show behavioral symptoms within 30 days of purchase:

Opinions vary on this. Some people actually seem to have the best success using Copper Power on wrassses. Like Coppersafe, it is a chelated copper product.

Is there that much of a difference between coppersafe and copper power? I can return the coppersafe, if need be.
Can a chelated copper be used in conjunction with General Cure?
Also, I've been adding Prime daily to mitigate any ammonia issues. Can I continue to do so if I add either chelated copper or General Cure?

 

[Maritimer]

Should I treat both the externally and internally??

You don't _have_ to do either, though external flukes are moderately common, and I've bumped into internal parasites more often than I'd have expected to.

A freshwater dip, as outlined in this article & video, will let you know whether you need to treat for external flukes: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/video-how-to-do-a-freshwater-dip.286639/#post-3487082

If you see stringy white poop, you'll definitely want to treat for internal parasites. If one fish in the tank has 'em, they likely all do, as fish will happily sample one another's droppings.

~Bruce

 

[GHsaltie]

You don’t want to use Prime with copper, it will make it extremely toxic. That’s also why if you put prime into a bag for acclimation you want to find out from the vendor or LFS if they use copper in their systems.

 

[tigé21v]

Ok, got the Copper Power yesterday. I'll start to treat this weekend. A few questions so I get this right.

The instructions say to dose to 2.5ppm. Is that the dosage everyone recommends?
Should I dose all at once, or reach the target level over the course of a few days?
Is there a recommended S.G. for the treatment ?
How long should the fish be exposed to the copper treatment?
How much time needs to pass between the last addition of Prime before adding Copper Power?
I currently have a HOB filter running on the tank, with GAC. I'm guessing remove the GAC?
I also have a bag of Matrix in the tank, should I remove it?
Do I need to add additional aeration?
Can I use General Cure at the same time as the Copper Power?
As far as residuals.. I've read over the years that copper will leach into the aquarium's seams, enough so as to be toxic to inverts
housed in the aquarium in the future. Is this a fact, or an old wives' tale? If residuals are a real thing, how about any equipment used in the tank and exposed to copper? Will it have to be used for fish-only after the treatment?
That's all I can think of... for now.
Thanks for your help!

 

[Humblefish]

The instructions say to dose to 2.5ppm. Is that the dosage everyone recommends?

For Copper Power, yes.

Should I dose all at once, or reach the target level over the course of a few days?

Take 5-7 days to reach therapeutic for prophylactic use; 24-48 hrs if you are treating for Marine Velvet Disease.

Is there a recommended S.G. for the treatment ?

Whatever SG the fish comes in at. If low, top off using saltwater until SG matches your DT.

How long should the fish be exposed to the copper treatment?

4 weeks

How much time needs to pass between the last addition of Prime before adding Copper Power?

48 hrs

I currently have a HOB filter running on the tank, with GAC. I'm guessing remove the GAC?

Yes

I also have a bag of Matrix in the tank, should I remove it?

That can stay, but it might absorb a little of the copper.

Do I need to add additional aeration?

Yes

Can I use General Cure at the same time as the Copper Power?

Yes

As far as residuals.. I've read over the years that copper will leach into the aquarium's seams, enough so as to be toxic to inverts
housed in the aquarium in the future. Is this a fact, or an old wives' tale? If residuals are a real thing, how about any equipment used in the tank and exposed to copper? Will it have to be used for fish-only after the treatment?

It's an old wives' tale. Wiping a tank (and all equipment) down using a vinegar soaked paper towel/rag will render it copper free. Spend some extra time cleaning the silicone seams.

 

[tigé21v]

ok, I've been slowly raising the copper level with Copper Power. I finally reached the recommended dosing level with last evening's dose. ( One ounce to 20 gallons, or in my case, 15ml to a 10 gallon tank). I pulled out my new API test kit to check the level, and....
The color chart jumps from 2.0 to 4.0 ppm.
Recommendations on how I should read the level? Is there another test kit out there that'll read 2.5ppm?
The reading I got "looks" to be around 2.0ppm. (Not the easiest kit to read. I'll try again tomorrow with daylight to see if I can see it any better.)
I would think that the reading would be off from their recommended dose should say, as I have a large bag of Matrix in the tank with the fish, and from what I've read, the matrix will absorb some of the copper.
But how can I know when I've reached the proper dose, the recommended 2.5ppm to eradicate the chance of velvet?
If I should accidentally add too much, how much can I overdose without harming the fish?

 

[tigé21v]

Should I increase the water test sample by a factor of five, and shoot for the .5ppm color on the chart? Would this work?

 

[Maritimer]

Not sure that it would, as that's kind of "off-label".

If your test looks about 2.0, you're probably good. Some folks shoot for 2.5 as insurance - so if it looks a bit darker than 2, but not nearly so dark as 4.0, . . . .

Yeah. Not always precisely _precise_, this hobby.

~Bruce, who uses Coppersafe, and the same test kit.

 

[tigé21v]

Thanks for the input.
Kind of frustrating, I'm finally trying to do it right, and it looks like in the end it's just going to be another crap shoot.

 

[Maritimer]

Still less of a crapshoot than the "dump-and-hope" approach I started my tank with.

Something goes wrong in QT, you lose a few fish - or maybe have a shot at saving 'em. Something goes south in the display, and . . . . Don't even want to think about all those fish, all those corals, all those inverts.

~Bruce

 

[tigé21v]

Yep. Valid point.
I've been looking online for other copper test kits. So far, not much luck. Well, more like not much information to be found on the kits I've come across, especially when it comes to whether or not it also works for saltwater.