To Water Change or Not, Nutrient Export

[ZombieEngineer]

Considering how many people I have talked to that are told to do a water change to resolve trace element buildup after ICP tests, they are 100% still necessary.

The difference now is that advanced reefers that use good dosing including trace elements have an adequate skimmer, have an adequate refugium/ATS, use alternate means of nutrient export like carbon dosing / gfo, and regularly use carbon to prevent buildup of more toxic things can substantially reduce water changes.

If one relies on water changes for dosing and nutrient export, then water changes 10-20% a week is basically required. If all of the other steps are performed, I think 10-20% monthly is a good level.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

I stop testing my nano. it's super easy and you should try it. you just need a refugium LED light. I used the one from CheatoMax. I find the algae scrubber to be very efficient at removing nutrients. I was having Dino and GHA problem even with the skimmer running 9 hours a day. About 2 weeks after installing the scrubber, I notice Dino and GHA stop growing in the display and skimmer stop removing stuff. no other change were made to my routine.

What were your parameters during this time

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Give your fish a bath, by doing a WC. For me people who don’t do water changes are simply doing it because they’re lazy

Ive always done WC since day 1 and I am currently still doing them in my current 10G holding tank as it is bare bottom.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Considering how many people I have talked to that are told to do a water change to resolve trace element buildup after ICP tests, they are 100% still necessary.

Build up? I would imagine they get depleted. Thats my assumption. as to why my corals puff up and color up after a WC.

The difference now is that advanced reefers that use good dosing including trace elements have an adequate skimmer, have an adequate refugium/ATS, use alternate means of nutrient export like carbon dosing / gfo, and regularly use carbon to prevent buildup of more toxic things can substantially reduce water changes.

I agree! I use carbon almost 24/7 to keep my water clean from foreign build up. helps keep the water clean ! I would like to add some sort of nutrient control / export on my soon nano build that I am restarting, to have a redundant export.

Theres just so many mixed opinions about different methods, but I have heard great feed back on ATS

If one relies on water changes for dosing and nutrient export, then water changes 10-20% a week is basically required. If all of the other steps are performed, I think 10-20% monthly is a good level.

I haven't dosed trace elements in my system yet, but I do dose the big 3 elements and perform regular WC. I would imagine that if trace elements were dosed, WC wouldn't be required, or am I missing something ?

 

[ZombieEngineer]

Build up? I would imagine they get depleted. Thats my assumption. as to why my corals puff up and color up after a WC.

I haven't dosed trace elements in my system yet, but I do dose the big 3 elements and perform regular WC. I would imagine that if trace elements were dosed, WC wouldn't be required, or am I missing something ?

Some elements will build up that are leached or missed by rodi. Common ones are aluminum and silicates. If one is elevated too high, the only fix is a water change.

When you dose trace elements, only the most common elements are dosed and they are not consumed at the same rates. The only way to really test for these is ICP testing. Say for example your corals use boron at a high rate bromine at a medium rate and a low rate for strontium. If you dosed all three equally you would end up with elevated strontium that would require a WC and then triton would sell you a slurry with extra boron to help get levels back in check.

If you dose trace elements but continue doing water changes at a lesser volume, you slow down all these build-ups and depletions so that ICP is only needed every year or two. Every extremely successful reefer I know that does almost no water changes does ICP tests every 2-4 months.

 

[James5214]

I have a 55 gallon planted freshwater tank that I haven't done a water change on in over 8 months maybe longer it is fully established with the thick substrate and al the plants they absorb the nutrients that are not needed and provide O2 for the fish. So I only top the tank off with water but it took a long time to get the tank to that mature level and be able to sustain all of those things but at first i did weekly water changes on it. So same goes for my salt tank I just started 3 months ago. Until I get it to the mature stage and have enough corals in my tank which are softies as of right now to take in tho excess nutrients. I do weekly water changes of 10 percent. Tank is thriving as of right now. But that's why we have to love this hobby there is no right or wrong answer and what works for you may or may not work for me. As the saying goes there's more then one way to skin a cat. Happy reefing guys.

 

[Garf]

Build up? I would imagine they get depleted. Thats my assumption. as to why my corals puff up and color up after a WC.


I agree! I use carbon almost 24/7 to keep my water clean from foreign build up. helps keep the water clean ! I would like to add some sort of nutrient control / export on my soon nano build that I am restarting, to have a redundant export.

Theres just so many mixed opinions about different methods, but I have heard great feed back on ATS


I haven't dosed trace elements in my system yet, but I do dose the big 3 elements and perform regular WC. I would imagine that if trace elements were dosed, WC wouldn't be required, or am I missing something ?

Anyone dosing magnesium, which is a mag chloride and mag sulfate combo will see a rise in chloride and sulphate compared to all other elements, there is no other possibility. The only way to combat this is to remove saltwater, add fresh water and all other elements except chloride and sulphate. Stealth waterchange, maybe controlled by wet skimming and pretending not to change water.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php#9

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is something I’m seeing very common now. With more research stating skimmers not being effective through the analysis of the Skimmate, I don’t think they’re worth the purchase for what they are advertised to do.

Ive never had experience with one, but I can imagine it wouldn’t do much but stabilize pH

Skimmers certainly export organics, and I do not think that there's any valid data to demonstrate otherwise.

They do nothing to existing nitrate and phosphate in the water, but can export bacteria and organics before they break down to nutrients.

I do agree that I would use one even if all it did was aerate the water, but I think to say the do little else that is useful is not correct.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Anyone dosing magnesium, which is a mag chloride and mag sulfate combo will see a rise in chloride and sulphate compared to all other elements, there is no other possibility. The only way to combat this is to remove saltwater, add fresh water and all other elements except chloride and sulphate. Stealth waterchange, maybe controlled by wet skimming and pretending not to change water.

Sodium too, because for magnesium to decline and need dosing requires alkalinity, and attached to all forms of alk dosing is sodium (exception is a CaCO3/CO2 reactor which would boost calcium instead of sodium when magnesium is net declining)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Now the question stands, what ways are great to reduce N or P and/or altogether ?

I do not think there's any secret. There are lots of great ways.

Nitrate:

Organic carbon dosing, sulfur denitrators, biopellets, carbon denitrators, certain types of media that allow enhanced denitrification, growing any photosynthetic organism, possibly deep sand beds, water changes

less effective but still help; skimming, GAC and other organic binders (purigen)

Phosphate:

Growing any photosynthetic organism, GFO or soluble iron dosing, aluminum oxide media, lanthanum dosing,

less effective but still help; Organic carbon dosing, skimming, GAC and other organic binders (purigen), water changes

 

[Timfish]

Water changes are the best way to get rid of the hydrophillic DOC that promotes pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes and is not removed by skimming or with GAC.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Some elements will build up that are leached or missed by rodi. Common ones are aluminum and silicates. If one is elevated too high, the only fix is a water change.

When you dose trace elements, only the most common elements are dosed and they are not consumed at the same rates. The only way to really test for these is ICP testing. Say for example your corals use boron at a high rate bromine at a medium rate and a low rate for strontium. If you dosed all three equally you would end up with elevated strontium that would require a WC and then triton would sell you a slurry with extra boron to help get levels back in check.

If you dose trace elements but continue doing water changes at a lesser volume, you slow down all these build-ups and depletions so that ICP is only needed every year or two. Every extremely successful reefer I know that does almost no water changes does ICP tests every 2-4 months.

Oh! I see now. It allows trace elements to stay in a healthy range and optimal, where it gives enough leeway for too much of a certain element, therefore less ice testing on levels. I Definitely agree with this methodology.

On a nano, I believe WC are no problems, maybe even for bigger tanks, especially with a mature reef, a 10% WC is only 15G per WC, allowing the trace elements to stay optimal and less ice tested.

I personally like water changes as it gives me time to care for my tank and get it looking like new, even with regular dosing of the big 3.

I have seen reefs without WC that look jaw dropping and I could only imagine that the WC are replaced with more frequent ICP testings, if my logic is correct

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

if lets say it were a 150G tank *********

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Anyone dosing magnesium, which is a mag chloride and mag sulfate combo will see a rise in chloride and sulphate compared to all other elements, there is no other possibility. The only way to combat this is to remove saltwater, add fresh water and all other elements except chloride and sulphate. Stealth waterchange, maybe controlled by wet skimming and pretending not to change water.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php#9

Yes I have heard of this, I believe I am seeing these methods being commonly replaced by Algae Scrubbers, at least from various threads I've read

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Skimmers certainly export organics, and I do not think that there's any valid data to demonstrate otherwise.

They do nothing to existing nitrate and phosphate in the water, but can export bacteria and organics before they break down to nutrients.

I do agree that I would use one even if all it did was aerate the water, but I think to say the do little else that is useful is not correct.

This is my exact thought. Yes pH will become stable which is important and yes it does export organics before they have time to break down, but I always hear stories about skimmers helping aid a little with nutrient prevention and often being replaced by other algal means of filtration.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

I do not think there's any secret. There are lots of great ways.

Nitrate:

Organic carbon dosing, sulfur denitrators, biopellets, carbon denitrators, certain types of media that allow enhanced denitrification, growing any photosynthetic organism, possibly deep sand beds, water changes

less effective but still help; skimming, GAC and other organic binders (purigen)

Phosphate:

Growing any photosynthetic organism, GFO or soluble iron dosing, aluminum oxide media, lanthanum dosing,

less effective but still help; Organic carbon dosing, skimming, GAC and other organic binders (purigen), water changes

Thank you for the list, definitely great for beginners in the forums !

I am planning an Algae Scrubber build for my current 10G holding tank with high nutrients (Reduced feeding pellets to clowns / swapping out Filter Floss every 2 days), I haven't had any experience with them yet but will love to figure out how well they perform.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Water changes are the best way to get rid of the hydrophillic DOC that promotes pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes and is not removed by skimming or with GAC.

Hm, this sounds like an interesting point, I have not heard of this point yet, but will look into it. I am fairly new to the micro biology of the reefing world

 

[Garf]

Sodium too, because for magnesium to decline and need dosing requires alkalinity, and attached to all forms of alk dosing is sodium (exception is a CaCO3/CO2 reactor which would boost calcium instead of sodium when magnesium is net declining)

The Tank o the month apparently has done no water changes for 4.5 years, however this seems suspect to me as the amount of calcification going on in that tank must be huge. Admittedly the owner does disclose that her partner really looks after the tank and she helps top up the containers of additives. Lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes I have heard of this, I believe I am seeing these methods being commonly replaced by Algae Scrubbers, at least from various threads I've read

I think maybe the sentence you wrote and the post you quoted are not talking about the same thing.

 

[Timfish]

Hm, this sounds like an interesting point, I have not heard of this point yet, but will look into it. I am fairly new to the micro biology of the reefing world

Reefs ae the most complex ecosystems on the planet so this can be viewed as a gross oversimplification but here's my take on it: Corals and algae are releasing labile DOC into the water promote different micorobial processes. The stuff from corals promotes autotrophic microbial processes while the stuff from algae poromotes heterotrophic processes and also promotes pathoginic microbial shifts in coral microbiomes. Algae releases much larger amounts of DOC than corals. Water changes reduces both the DOC and microbes in the water equally. This reduces the negative impacts of excess labile DOC from algae and lets corals promote more beneficial stuff.

Here's some links on microbial stuff and nutrients. It's sad how much dogma is still being passed off to newbies that research shows is unsubstantiated or is even detrimental to maintaining healthy ecosystems. Here's a data bomb links to some of the research on microbial and nutrient stuff:


"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems


Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes


Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont


BActeria and Sponges


Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)


Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching


Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"