To Water Change or Not, Nutrient Export

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Are water changes still necessary with today’s knowledge on reef chemistry and it’s effectiveness?

are water changes really effective in reducing nitrates and maybe even some phosphates ?

if we now have many ways of nutrient export and ways to dose trace and major elements, why water change (unless to rid your tank of something foreign).

what ways can one rely on nutrient export and are there methods that really don’t help ? I’ve heard some rumors that protein skimmers don’t remove much proteins in the water. Could this be true ?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Are water changes still necessary with today’s knowledge on reef chemistry and it’s effectiveness?

are water changes really effective in reducing nitrates and maybe even some phosphates ?

if we now have many ways of nutrient export and ways to dose trace and major elements, why water change (unless to rid your tank of something foreign).

what ways can one rely on nutrient export and are there methods that really don’t help ? I’ve heard some rumors that protein skimmers don’t remove much proteins in the water. Could this be true ?

Personally I think water changes are a great way to replenish trace elements and other elements as well (before dosing the big 3)...I'd also say it's a good way to lower levels of organics and any toxins that may be present which have many sources

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

I agree. Wcs for me are an emergency restore balance thing. Like my corals not doing well.
Also they do dilute pollution. The solution. Lol.
If you do a large enough water change and your nutrients are in the excess range yes I think it will lower nutrient levels.
D

 

[Garf]

Are water changes still necessary with today’s knowledge on reef chemistry and it’s effectiveness?

are water changes really effective in reducing nitrates and maybe even some phosphates ?

if we now have many ways of nutrient export and ways to dose trace and major elements, why water change (unless to rid your tank of something foreign).

what ways can one rely on nutrient export and are there methods that really don’t help ? I’ve heard some rumors that protein skimmers don’t remove much proteins in the water. Could this be true ?

Stopped skimming on mine and it made absolutely no difference, except I don’t clean a skimmer cup. I aerate the sump with the skimmer pump but removed the skimmer body.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Stopped skimming on mine and it made absolutely no difference, except I don’t clean a skimmer cup. I aerate the sump with the skimmer pump but removed the skimmer body.

This is something I’m seeing very common now. With more research stating skimmers not being effective through the analysis of the Skimmate, I don’t think they’re worth the purchase for what they are advertised to do.

Ive never had experience with one, but I can imagine it wouldn’t do much but stabilize pH

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Personally I think water changes are a great way to replenish trace elements and other elements as well (before dosing the big 3)...I'd also say it's a good way to lower levels of organics and any toxins that may be present which have many sources

I do water changes weekly on my system to keep nutrients low. I have high phosphates, which water changes do absolutely nothing to, however my nitrates do drop slightly.

i Dont think WC are the best way to remove them however.

i have relied on WC to this day for element replenishment, but I began to ask, how much are we actually replenishing and how much is being consumed ?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I do water changes weekly on my system to keep nutrients low. I have high phosphates, which water changes do absolutely nothing to, however my nitrates do drop slightly.

i Dont think WC are the best way to remove them however.

i have relied on WC to this day for element replenishment, but I began to ask, how much are we actually replenishing and how much is being consumed ?

I wouldn't expect water changes to help much with phosphate...as for the trace elements, it just seems like a good practice just to be sure they are where they need to be. Beats having an ICP test to find out where your trace elements are...it's not much of a hassle fore personally and I really do think some fresh water every now and then is something the fish and corals would appreciate

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

I agree. Wcs for me are an emergency restore balance thing. Like my corals not doing well.
Also they do dilute pollution. The solution. Lol.
If you do a large enough water change and your nutrients are in the excess range yes I think it will lower nutrient levels.
D

I agree, on bigger statesman that would be a big hassle, but for nano, I believe they’re great options.

i have only had nano and find WC being somewhat therapeutic.

i still think that lots of water is wasted on water changes.

as far as nutrient control, I can see many methods being used to rid the tank of them. ATS, Refugium, Carbon Dosing, you name it.

i often think that mechanical filtration is over looked as well as biological filtration.

before my tank crashed due to bryopsis take over, I relied on WC for nutrient control. The first few months my nitrates were sky high and I had to rely on bi weekly water changes.

Even on a 20 nano, I felt that I was carrying too many buckets around all the time. After a year, I began to see my nitrates really drop. I went from 50 ppm on the 4 month mark , then to 25 ppm on the 6 month mark, and at 8 months I went to around 10-15 ppm, and at a year I had undetectable levels.

my phosphates were never affected though, but to be honest didn’t have the test kit for it (at least a good one)

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

I wouldn't expect water changes to help much with phosphate...as for the trace elements, it just seems like a good practice just to be sure they are where they need to be. Beats having an ICP test to find out where your trace elements are...it's not much of a hassle fore personally and I really do think some fresh water every now and then is something the fish and corals would appreciate

I do as well. For some reason it feels necessary at times. Sometimes I feel an urge to just WC for no absolute reason haha

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I do however, feel it's possible to go without water changes if you employ carbon dosing correctly, are very careful with your feeding, have a refugium, are a meticulous doser of all major and minor elements, and a few other husbandry jobs as well but it just seems like the harder and less efficient way to run a tank vs. simple water changes

 

[ReefGeezer]

I'm going to give you an answer based on observations of my tanks over a lot of years. I don't rely on WC to manage the big 3 or reduce nutrients. I don't do ICP testing or add any trace elements on a regular basis. When I do regular water changes, the tanks look better. When I slack on them the tanks suffer. I can't tell you if it is export of nutrients and ions built up over time, if it is addition of trace elements, or even if it just the slight ORP bump you get when adding freshly mixed water. I've done the math. Small water changes don't add or remove that much. I hear the arguments that regular water changes help with accumulation of potentially harmful nutrients and ions over time. I would not disagree with that logic and put that in the every little bit helps category. I don't think that's the reason I see positive responses (better SPS polyp extension, Zoas and LPS corals opening bigger, etc.) from the tank immediately after doing small water changes.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

I do however, feel it's possible to go without water changes if you employ carbon dosing correctly, are very careful with your feeding, have a refugium, are a meticulous doser of all major and minor elements, and a few other husbandry jobs as well but it just seems like the harder and less efficient way to run a tank vs. simple water changes

I want to see if there are any studies on mechanical filtration and when to swap it out.

i wonder if swapping out out mech filtration on a certain time frame, along with regular feeding habits, and good husbandry (such as mixing up your sand bed to remove any detritus and into your mech filtration), with occasional WC would be enough to keep nutrients at bay, enough until you bio filtration grows to maintain NO3 levels.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

I'm going to give you an answer based on observations of my tanks over a lot of years. I don't rely on WC to manage the big 3 or reduce nutrients. I don't do ICP testing or add any trace elements on a regular basis. When I do regular water changes, the tanks look better. When I slack on them the tanks suffer. I can't tell you if it is export of nutrients and ions built up over time, if it is addition of trace elements, or even if it just the slight ORP bump you get when adding freshly mixed water. I've done the math. Small water changes don't add or remove that much. I hear the arguments that regular water changes help with accumulation of potentially harmful nutrients and ions over time. I would not disagree with that logic and put that in the every little bit helps category. I don't think that's the reason I see positive responses (better SPS polyp extension, Zoas and LPS corals opening bigger, etc.) from the tank immediately after doing small water changes.

I have the same story with my past nano reef.

I felt that after every WC, my corals swayed happily in the flow and looked fatter.

from what I can see, and through my experience, WC didn’t drastically affect my nutrients and in fact did not drastically increase my elements but some how the corals looked happier.

this is where I got my curiosity sparked. Why are WC utilized for, I know there has to be reason. What’s the difference between my new mixed SW and my old SW taken out from my tank ?

instinct tells me there’s something we have yet to discover here.

i have seen reefs that have looked amazing without them as well. This is where my brain goes numb

 

[dvgyfresh]

Team no water change, I actually have to dose to keep nitrates in the system and if it does get too high I remove chaeto so it can regrow and absorb phos / nitrate , other than that dosing major 3 / trace. You have to build a ecosystem or have a regimen , I chose ecosystem cuz I’m lazy lol

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

I have the same story with my past nano reef.

I felt that after every WC, my corals swayed happily in the flow and looked fatter.

from what I can see, and through my experience, WC didn’t drastically affect my nutrients and in fact did not drastically increase my elements but some how the corals looked happier.

this is where I got my curiosity sparked. Why are WC utilized for, I know there has to be reason. What’s the difference between my new mixed SW and my old SW taken out from my tank ?

instinct tells me there’s something we have yet to discover here.

i have seen reefs that have looked amazing without them as well. This is where my brain goes numb

I bet the fresh clean saltwater is like a breath of fresh air for lack of a better term. Not just for the corals themselves but for the whole holobiont

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

Team no water change, I actually have to dose to keep nitrates in the system and if it does get too high I remove chaeto so it can regrow and absorb phos / nitrate , other than that dosing major 3 / trace. You have to build a ecosystem or have a regimen , I chose ecosystem cuz I’m lazy lol

This is a good testimony.

I had this question for the longest when system bottomed out on NO3. I thought to myself, if I were to have a protein skimmer, or X or Y, I would have had to get the system offline.

this is where I began to question the necessity of current equipment, and began to understand the importance of growing a great bacteria population and preventing the rise of certain nutrients

 

[mindme]

Are water changes still necessary with today’s knowledge on reef chemistry and it’s effectiveness?

No.

are water changes really effective in reducing nitrates and maybe even some phosphates ?

They can be depending on how often you do them, how much volume you replace when you do them and how much you feed. I used water changes for years, and it was always a case of either - cutting back feeding, or doing more water changes. It works, but I hate it. It's like trying to mow your grass with a lawn mower than can only cut off 25% from the top of the grass every mow.

if we now have many ways of nutrient export and ways to dose trace and major elements, why water change (unless to rid your tank of something foreign).

The only reason I do water changes is to remove something that can't be taken out otherwise.

what ways can one rely on nutrient export and are there methods that really don’t help ? I’ve heard some rumors that protein skimmers don’t remove much proteins in the water. Could this be true ?

Mine removes a lot of nasty stuff is all I know. I'll put it this way - if you skimmed your tank for a week, would you even remotely think of pouring the cup into the tank? Well, that's what has been removed from the tank.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I have the same story with my past nano reef.

I felt that after every WC, my corals swayed happily in the flow and looked fatter.

from what I can see, and through my experience, WC didn’t drastically affect my nutrients and in fact did not drastically increase my elements but some how the corals looked happier.

this is where I got my curiosity sparked. Why are WC utilized for, I know there has to be reason. What’s the difference between my new mixed SW and my old SW taken out from my tank ?

instinct tells me there’s something we have yet to discover here.

i have seen reefs that have looked amazing without them as well. This is where my brain goes numb

You're on the right track with your questioning, it's just that no one has come up with a really definitive answer as to why corals seem to look better to many after a water change.

And for some, the opposite is true so we can also throw that into the mix.

this is where I began to question the necessity of current equipment, and began to understand the importance of growing a great bacteria population and preventing the rise of certain nutrients

My thoughts on the subject...

A system's diverse microbial community is of paramount importance since without it all the fancy equipment in the world won't achieve a successful reef aquarium.

Having said that, excellent/durable equipment (and backups, if possible) contributes to long term success/longevity.

Having the least amount of equipment (that still provides for a favorable reef aquarium environment) helps to prevent 'reefer burnout' (less fiddling/repair/replacement/chance of mistakes) and also makes the system more robust (minimization of failure points).

Given enough time (and some restraint from us to not constantly tweak and meddle) the simplest of systems often outlast all others.

 

[mindme]

You're on the right track with your questioning, it's just that no one has come up with a really definitive answer as to why corals seem to look better to many after a water change.

And for some, the opposite is true so we can also throw that into the mix.

I think it's trace elements.

A water change can only add in a % of the trace elements back, and many(I guess maybe all) salts are somewhat lacking in the trace elements. So you do a water change, and you replenish part of them. But your coral likely use them all up before your next water change. So each time you do the water change, they get the temporary boost, and if they were depleted, you only replenish 20% of whatever the salt has.

Meanwhile people who dose trace elements maintain that effect full time, and water change can often times reduce those elements. But there is so much going on, it's really hard to measure, I'm no scientist.

I've seen this effect in my anemone tank with macro elements. It's a 29g tank, with just some RBTA and 2 clownfish, trash palys and some xenia. I rarely do water changes on it, maybe 3 a year. I don't dose anything on it, not even alk/cal. I let algae grow in the tank and remove it about once a month for nutrient removal.

It does not grow coraline really. It doesn't have the cal/alk to do so. However, after I do a water change, some will grow here and there for a short time after(and then the urchins eat it up). Then it gets to a point where it stops growing after using up the cal/alk.

I think the same thing happens with trace elements. Unlike the macro, the coral can still stay alive without them, but they will only survive, not thrive. Some still grow, but not as colorful etc. Which was basically my experience with water changes in the past, where they would perk up after a water change. They would grow for a short time after the water change, then slow down.

 

[Angel_V_the_reefer]

They can be depending on how often you do them, how much volume you replace when you do them and how much you feed. I used water changes for years, and it was always a case of either - cutting back feeding, or doing more water changes. It works, but I hate it. It's like trying to mow your grass with a lawn mower than can only cut off 25% from the top of the grass every mow.

I love this analogy, this is a perfect way to think of WC.

I still perform water changes so its not like im against it, its more about my curiosity thinking of ways I could minimize work.

I do plan to get my nano running back up and transfer my clowns and corals into it soon, so I am really looking to see what ways I can maintain nutrients stable, without needing extra equipment if not necessary

The only reason I do water changes is to remove something that can't be taken out otherwise.

I would believe so. Personally im not too informed on the micro biology of what is taken out during WC

Mine removes a lot of nasty stuff is all I know. I'll put it this way - if you skimmed your tank for a week, would you even remotely think of pouring the cup into the tank? Well, that's what has been removed from the tank.

I planned on investing in a protein skimmer. I have read an article from reefs.com of a study on skim mate and what it contained. If I remember correctly, only 29% of the skim mate were organic compounds or protein and the rest were inorganic compounds.