Torch not looking so hot, bleaching tentacles

[JoJosReef]

Green tip/purple polyp torch is now only green tips and white/clear polyps. I will post parameters tomorrow (forgot my test kits at home, d'oh!). Anyone see this happening before? Must be something with the water. I have emeralds in the tank, but haven't seen them bothering the corals yet (fingers crossed).

Torch has been in the tank since April. Neighboring octospawn is fine and neighboring hammer is growing fast. Under an AI Prime 16HD in 10g IM Nuvo running AB+/Saxby schedule peaking in mid 80%s.

I've been out of office, so office mates have been in charge. Can't say if the nutrients are high or low just yet, but they were trending down on the low side (NO3 1ppm, PO4 0.03-0.1ppm) before I left for a week. Think I'll do a 10% water change and then dose my daily AFR.

 

[blaxsun]

Hard to speculate without water parameters (check your alkalinity, etc. as well)

 

[JoJosReef]

Hard to speculate without water parameters (check your alkalinity, etc. as well)

Yes, will post tomorrow, asap! Left my whole Red Sea kit and Salifert kits at home (smacking head).

So in the meantime, just did a 10% WC and added AFR (salt mixes atypically low Alk). Hopefully won't bail by tomorrow, but then, if that happens I'm not sure what I could do anyway.

 

[JoJosReef]

Hard to speculate without water parameters (check your alkalinity, etc. as well)

Sg: 1.0255
ALk: 6.7dKh (!!)
NO3: 2ppm
PO4: 0.3-0.1 (maybe. Salifert, hard to tell. Getting Hanna for Xmas)

Looks like the coworkers weren't able to keep up the ALK while I was gone. I'll need to bring that back into the mid-7s over the next day or two and see if that perks up the torch.

Thanks!

 

[Dave1993]

N03 is low torches like 10-15

 

[JoJosReef]

N03 is low torches like 10-15

Thanks, I've been adding NeoNitro when I get low readings to bring it up to around 5ppm. Should be a happy place for most everything in the tank, and they've all done well at that level before.

PO4 has been a problem in the past, running 0.5-1.0ppm. But now I have a hard time telling how much there is at the lowest shades of blue/clear (Salifert).

Low nutrients and ALK swing distressing the torch?

 

[blaxsun]

Thanks, I've been adding NeoNitro when I get low readings to bring it up to around 5ppm. Should be a happy place for most everything in the tank, and they've all done well at that level before.

PO4 has been a problem in the past, running 0.5-1.0ppm. But now I have a hard time telling how much there is at the lowest shades of blue/clear (Salifert).

Low nutrients and ALK swing distressing the torch?

Probably a combination of both, but mainly the alkalinity swing I suspect.

 

[JoJosReef]

N03 is low torches like 10-15

Probably a combination of both, but mainly the alkalinity swing I suspect.

I am trying to slowly raise NO3 and ALK using NeoNitro and AFR, respectively. The torch is still looking bleached, but at least has polyps out, if not fully extended:

Do you know of anything else to do in the meanwhile to help it bounce back? I started adding a few drops of Brightwell aminos in the evening. You don't think this could be a bacterial infection, could it? I have a little bit of cipro on hand...

Thanks!

 

[blaxsun]

It is looking better. I'd give it time - I think what you're doing is working.

 

[JoJosReef]

It is looking better. I'd give it time - I think what you're doing is working.

I'm worried it is getting worse. Today the bleaching is starting to reach the tips of the polyps. There is also this kind of grey "stain", for lack of a better word, on some of the polyps. Maybe you can see it better on the video. Do you think this could be a bacterial infection or early stage brown jelly disease? I've got cipro at the ready in case I need the nuclear option.

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[blaxsun]

It doesn't look like BJD (but the easiest way to confirm this is if you can gently remove the frag and give it the "smell" test); if it reeks - probably BJD. It could be a bacterial infection (I know euphyllia are prone to this). It looks both better - and worse (in spots).

I've had some success (and by some, I mean 50-50) treating sick euphyllia (mostly hammers) with a Polyp Lab Reef Primer dip, but that was for confirmed BJD. Cipro is one of those medications we don't have access to up here in Canada, so it's unfortunately never been available as an option so I can't offer any helpful suggestions in that respect.

I did watch the video and I don't think flow is an issue (seems to be about right). Is this the only coral in your tank that's been affected?

 

[JoJosReef]

It doesn't look like BJD (but the easiest way to confirm this is if you can gently remove the frag and give it the "smell" test); if it reeks - probably BJD. It could be a bacterial infection (I know euphyllia are prone to this). It looks both better - and worse (in spots).

I've had some success (and by some, I mean 50-50) treating sick euphyllia (mostly hammers) with a Polyp Lab Reef Primer dip, but that was for confirmed BJD. Cipro is one of those medications we don't have access to up here in Canada, so it's unfortunately never been available as an option so I can't offer any helpful suggestions in that respect.

I did watch the video and I don't think flow is an issue (seems to be about right). Is this the only coral in your tank that's been affected?

Good question. There are a few things that look "off" in the tank:

Octospawn/Hammer island next to torch: octospawn is not as fluffy as usual and is pulled back a bit; hammer is also a bit pulled back, but still seems to be growing and splitting.

RFA in front and RFA in the middle of tank, nothing unusual.

codium to the right: was overgrowing and trimmed it back by about 50% yesterday. Might help bring up nutrients a tad, too.

Pavona up top: normal, branching a bit in fact.

Botrycladia: overgrowing and needs to be trimmed

Palythoa island, renovated to zoa island: removed and scraped off a few weeks ago. Had to get rid of most of the "apple cinnamon/fairy dust" brown palys and green palys that overgrew the entire rock. Tank was unhappy after that. New zoas are OK, but not taking off growing. Cloves are being picked at by the blenny, but I don't care.

Branching GSP: branching and fluffy.

RFA in front on glass, OK. RFA on rock up top has been moving a lot lately, but seems to be settling down. Favia bottom left has been dead for a while (happened during a previous work trip). Gorgonian is acting OK. Clam shell is now a pom pom gracilaria bed, which is doing fine.

Missing is a red montipora digitata, which I moved to my other tank to see if it would recover there. Got it end of september, and it looked great for a bit but slowly worsened until only a few red retracted polyps could be seen inside the skeleton.

Only other major change has been a massive reduction in bubble algae after addition of 2 new emerald crabs before Thanksgiving.

And everything is under an AI Prime 16HD running AB+/Saxby schedule peaked in mid-80s, nothing new there.

I know this was exhaustive, but thanks for the read/advice!

 

[Shirak]

With the nutrient levels bouncing around in the water have you tried target feeding a little mysis or LPS pellets? Torches are usually pretty good at catching bits of food.

 

[JoJosReef]

With the nutrient levels bouncing around in the water have you tried target feeding a little mysis or LPS pellets? Torches are usually pretty good at catching bits of food.

I make a slurry of Reef Nutrition oyster feast/ROE/mysis feast/phyto feast and give each euphyllia a squirt of the slurry Mon-Fri. Been consistently doing this for about 6 months now.

Just bought Arcti-pods, Pac-pods and Roti-feast to add to the slurry.

Thanks!

 

[JoJosReef]

Bleaching is getting worse, and I have new measurements:

Sg: 1.025 (down from normal 1.026)
Alk: 7.6 (Red Sea)
Mg: 1710ppm (Salifert; yes, that's right and test is consistent with Red Sea...been running in the high 1600s for many months due to weird batch of HW salt)
Ca: somewhere between 500ppm and 530ppm (Red Sea, harder to tell than Salifert since color changes more slowly)
NO3: ~4ppm (Salifert)
pH: ~8.3

It looks like Mg and Ca to a certain extent have been getting out of hand. The tank has been running mid-1600s Mg for months, but this is a first I've seen >1700. Given, I don't measure Mg with regularity like Alk/NO3/PO4.

I have new salt in (Fritz blue box) and will start doing water changes tomorrow AM. Probably 10% daily or worst case 10% am and 10% pm.

Does anyone know how to bring back a bleached torch?

Thanks!

 

[Shirak]

Could be light levels although your nitrate is still low despite what sounds like a good feeding program. How is phosphate? The zooxanthellae need nitrates and phosphates to live.. and light. As long as there is color in the flesh it is the coral adapting to it's current nutrient levels and light levels. Low nutrients, higher light or combinations of both will cause the coral to lose color. Higher nutrients and lower light tend to cause darker color, particularly browns.. to a point. Too little light and the zooxanthellae will die off. You mentioned an AI Prime. I find my AI Prime to be fairly spot focused and spread to be poor unless it's fairly high up but then it's kinda underpowered and even then the intensity drops dramatically from directly under the light to the outer areas. One AI Prime on a 10g tank could be part of the problem. I think this along with the low nutrient levels is causing the problems. I would stop doing water changes and increase feeding until you get your nitrates up.

(yes your Ca and Mg are on the high side but not crazy high to be causing problems IMO)

 

[JoJosReef]

Could be light levels although your nitrate is still low despite what sounds like a good feeding program. How is phosphate? The zooxanthellae need nitrates and phosphates to live.. and light. As long as there is color in the flesh it is the coral adapting to it's current nutrient levels and light levels. Low nutrients, higher light or combinations of both will cause the coral to lose color. Higher nutrients and lower light tend to cause darker color, particularly browns.. to a point. Too little light and the zooxanthellae will die off. You mentioned an AI Prime. I find my AI Prime to be fairly spot focused and spread to be poor unless it's fairly high up but then it's kinda underpowered and even then the intensity drops dramatically from directly under the light to the outer areas. One AI Prime on a 10g tank could be part of the problem. I think this along with the low nutrient levels is causing the problems. I would stop doing water changes and increase feeding until you get your nitrates up.

(yes your Ca and Mg are on the high side but not crazy high to be causing problems IMO)

Thank you, that's great information! I will work on bringing up the NO3 and PO4. PO4 has only recently (past month or so) been hovering in the 0.03-0.1 range (really hard to tell with Salifert), previously in the 0.1-0.5 range.

When I borrowed an Appogee, I was measuring around 170-190 around the torch at peak saxby schedule. That was at mid-70s% at peak. Now mid-80s, so a but more par theoughout the day.

Think the water changes are going to be necessary to switch salts, but I can dose NeoNitro and PO4 Flourish to keep levels up.

Thanks!

 

[JoJosReef]

Worse today. Now the hammer and octospawn are angry.

Top view hammer and octo:

It looks to me like they are starting to expel zooanthellae.

Top view of bleached torch:

Side view of hammer and octo:

I also zoomed into the skeleton of the octo:

Does this look like the beginnings of brown jelly? It isn't goopy, but I rarely get a glimpse of this part of the octo since its polyps are always covering its skeleton.

For reference, this is the skeleton of the bleaching torch:

So far, I can't tell if there is anything wrong with the skeleton(s).


FYI, I tested just now, and ALK is its typical low of ~7.0, Nitrates at ~4ppm, but PO4 is zero today.

I am going to trim down more of my macroalgae and begin with some water changes followed by testing and supplementing NO3/PO4, aminos and a good feed. I don't know what else to do.

 

[JoJosReef]

Sorry, another update.

I just mixed 5gallons of brand new Fritz RPM salt and measured ALK and Mg. At 1.026sg, ALK was measuring at about 5dKh (Red Sea, below the range of the test), where it should have been mixing at about 8.0-9.0.

It looks to me like my Red Sea alkalinity pro kit is on the fritz (sorry!).

That means I may have been gradually over-adjusting my tank with All-For-Reef based on faulty ALK measurements for who knows how long. I am ordering a new Salifert ALK test today, and just did a 2 gallon water change with the new Fritz salt (regardless of low measurements, right now I trust the packaging more than the Red Sea test and the tank is in trouble).

You think you're doing a good job...

 

[Shirak]

How did you measure the salt? You mixed according to the directions on the container for 1.026sg? What are you using to measure salinity?

Why all the water changes? You are shooting yourself in the foot with the nutrient bottoming out problems with all the water changes. Don't forget even the best test kits have a margin of error so NO3 around 4 is pretty close to zero and could likely be zero. Also when are you sampling water for testing? In the morning before any feeding? When do you typically feed?

I don't see BJD. I see tissue lose around the outside of the skeleton on the octo, torch and the hammer. The hammer is also losing tissue on the top of the big ribs. Not a good sign. I think they are starving...

I would be looking to bump Alk and shoot for 8 range. 7 is too low and 7.5 doesn't leave much margin for error. I use AFR also but often have to bump Alk a little each week with some baking soda. I add a couple teaspoons to a 5 gallon bucket of ATO water. I think your alk and your nutrients are bouncing all over the place and the LPS are very unhappy. Bumping your NO3 and PO4 with supplements is ok but feeding more is better in my opinion. The LPS like to catch bits of food. Most of what you have listed are small particles. I would be feeding them chopped mysis and LPS pellets. They can also be a bit slow to eat, particularly the hammer and Octo. Turn off the pumps for 20-30 minutes.