Torches and sps dying! Need Help!

[Reefhaven]

Hey All,
I have been dealing with an issue in my tank where my torches and sps keep dying. It all started about 1 and a half years ago when I lost power for 2 days and lost everything in my tank. Pics of the tank during the glory days! After that, everytime I put torches and sps in my tank it would start to do after a few weeks. I left the tank running for while with minimal fish and a couple corals…acans and a few bounce mushrooms.

Fast forward to now, every time I add torches and sps in my tank they still die after a few weeks. Things only get better right after I do a 30% water change but after a few weeks things start to die. I know this because I have a bubblegum digi and right after I do a water change there’s polyps come out and after a weeks the polyp recessed. So I got a water test through ATI and here are the results I go back. Sulfur is really high and iodine is really low.

My friends think that after a water change the sulfur gets diluted and builds up again where it impacts the corals. How can I fix this problem or can the high sulfur levels even cause this to happen with the torches and sps. If not, what else can be causing this problem???

 

[Lasse]

Your salinity is low - it means that you get odd result according the macro elements. Your ICP lab has try to compensate for this and give you the ideal values for this salinity for the macro elements. You are critical high also in Mg and Ca.

According S - S itself is not very toxic but if you get an imbalance between Cl and S (normal 21:1) your corals can get into problems. Your quota is around 14:1 - not so good.

However - your problem is probably your dosage of calcium and magnesium - you dose too much and your magnesium additive is probably to high in magnesium sulphate (Epsom salt)

Your Cl and Na concentrations is spot on - it indicate that the problems is linked to the amount and quality of the Ca and Mg additives you use

My advises - Adjust your salinity to around 35 psu (around 1.026) with several WC. Stop to dose Ca and Mg (especially Mg) until you are around 410 - 440 mg/l Ca and around 1300 mg/L Mg (at 35 psu) - if you use an additive that contains a lot of magnesium sulfate - change additive to a brand that contain a balanced mix between magnesium chloride and magnesium sulphate. If you use pure magnesium sulphate - check for ammonia in it. Some brands of magnesium sulphate (technical grade) has shown up containing a lot of NH4. At least here in Sweden. You can run several months without adding any magnesium - IME

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Reefara]

Your salinity is low - it means that you get odd result according the macro elements. Your ICP lab has try to compensate for this and give you the ideal values for this salinity for the macro elements. You are critical high also in Mg and Ca.

According S - S itself is not very toxic but if you get an imbalance between Cl and S (normal 21:1) your corals can get into problems. Your quota is around 14:1 - not so good.

However - your problem is probably your dosage of calcium and magnesium - you dose to much and your magnesium additive is probably to high in magnesium sulphate (Epson salt)

Your Cl and Na concentrations is spot on - it indicate that the problems is linked to the amount and quality of the Ca and Mg additives you use

My advises - Adjust your salinity to around 35 psu (around 1.026) with several WC. Stop to dose Ca and Mg (especially Mg) until you are around 410 - 440 mg/l Ca and around 1300 mg/L Mg (at 35 psu) - if you use an additive that contains a lot of magnesium sulfate - change additive to a brand that contain a balanced mix between magnesium chloride and magnesium sulphate. If you use pure magnesium sulphate - check for ammonia in it. Some brands of magnesium sulphate (technical grade) has shown up containing a lot of NH4. At least here in Sweden. You can run several months without adding any magnesium - IME

Sincerely Lasse

Plus one on this.

I say stop dosing for now let the tank reset.
Fix salinity first thats the biggest issue right now
Water changes to stabilize
After everything stabilizes start dosing but not blindly
And adjust your iodine it’s completely crashed torches hate that
High mag melts sps

Best thing right now is no dosing and water changes
That’ll get everything back on track!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree that sulfur as sulfate is unlikely to be a problem. It's mostly just a bystander in seawater, like chloride.

Don't let words like "critically high" overly concern you. It's unjustified in so many cases.

Sulfate will not rise unless you add it (or salinity changes, which changes everything).

Using Epsom salt for magnesium is the biggest reason folks get excessive sulfate.

 

[Reefhaven]

I agree that sulfur as sulfate is unlikely to be a problem. It's mostly just a bystander in seawater, like chloride.

Don't let words like "critically high" overly concern you. It's unjustified in so many cases.

Sulfate will not rise unless you add it (or salinity changes, which changes everything).

Using Epsom salt for magnesium is the biggest reason folks get excessive sulfate.

Thanks for the advice. I use seachem magnesium. Should I dose iodine to get it up?

 

[Reefhaven]

Your salinity is low - it means that you get odd result according the macro elements. Your ICP lab has try to compensate for this and give you the ideal values for this salinity for the macro elements. You are critical high also in Mg and Ca.

According S - S itself is not very toxic but if you get an imbalance between Cl and S (normal 21:1) your corals can get into problems. Your quota is around 14:1 - not so good.

However - your problem is probably your dosage of calcium and magnesium - you dose too much and your magnesium additive is probably to high in magnesium sulphate (Epsom salt)

Your Cl and Na concentrations is spot on - it indicate that the problems is linked to the amount and quality of the Ca and Mg additives you use

My advises - Adjust your salinity to around 35 psu (around 1.026) with several WC. Stop to dose Ca and Mg (especially Mg) until you are around 410 - 440 mg/l Ca and around 1300 mg/L Mg (at 35 psu) - if you use an additive that contains a lot of magnesium sulfate - change additive to a brand that contain a balanced mix between magnesium chloride and magnesium sulphate. If you use pure magnesium sulphate - check for ammonia in it. Some brands of magnesium sulphate (technical grade) has shown up containing a lot of NH4. At least here in Sweden. You can run several months without adding any magnesium - IME

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks Lasse! I use seachem calcium and magnesium for dosing. I will get my salinity up to 35 psu.

 

[Lasse]

Is it Reef Advantage Magnesium you use? Its very difficult to get any ideas of the content of this product but at last i get a picture of the content - its magnesium sulphate and sodium chloride.

Your high sulfur concentration is due to this product and that you overdose it - IMO. Many other products solve the problem with to much chloride ions in relation to the sodium ions in that way that the magnesium part is a mix of magnesium chloride and magnesium sulphate. Triton Core 7 (the method I use) is one of them but there is many more products and additives that use a minimal amount of magnesium sulphate

I mentioned the ratio Cl/S before and that it should be around 21:1 (Cl/SO4 = around 7:1) There is some reports saying that just euphyllia and Acropora is sensitive for lower ratios between Cl:S but there is difficult to get any scientific evidence for this - the nearest I could see is a general knowledge how some ion channels can respond to too much S (SO4) in the water (compared to the Cl concentrations) and how the mucus production may be disturbed in general

Regardless of this - I would stop my magnesium addition until the concentration is below 1300 mg/L (1270 ppm > mg/L in 35 psu saltwater is around mg/L divided by 1.024 ppm (density of saltwater at 35 PSU and 25 degree C - not 1.026 that is the specific gravity) Do frequent water changes with a well-balanced salt and raise the salt content to about 35 PSU - 1.026 specific gravity. After this, if needed, I would use a magnesium addition that resolves the ion balance in the water in a different way than what Seachem does

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the advice. I use seachem magnesium. Should I dose iodine to get it up?

There’s no reason to not boost iodine, but I’m also not sure you will see any difference doing so. :)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is it Reef Advantage Magnesium you use? Its very difficult to get any ideas of the content of this product but at last i get a picture of the content - its magnesium sulphate and sodium chloride.

Your high sulfur concentration is due to this product and that you overdose it - IMO. Many other products solve the problem with to much chloride ions in relation to the sodium ions in that way that the magnesium part is a mix of magnesium chloride and magnesium sulphate. Triton Core 7 (the method I use) is one of them but there is many more products and additives that use a minimal amount of magnesium sulphate

I mentioned the ratio Cl/S before and that it should be around 21:1 (Cl/SO4 = around 7:1) There is some reports saying that just euphyllia and Acropora is sensitive for lower ratios between Cl:S but there is difficult to get any scientific evidence for this - the nearest I could see is a general knowledge how some ion channels can respond to too much S (SO4) in the water (compared to the Cl concentrations) and how the mucus production may be disturbed in general

Regardless of this - I would stop my magnesium addition until the concentration is below 1300 mg/L (1270 ppm > mg/L in 35 psu saltwater is around mg/L divided by 1.024 ppm (density of saltwater at 35 PSU and 25 degree C - not 1.026 that is the specific gravity) Do frequent water changes with a well-balanced salt and raise the salt content to about 35 PSU - 1.026 specific gravity. After this, if needed, I would use a magnesium addition that resolves the ion balance in the water in a different way than what Seachem does

Sincerely Lasse

Seachem has said they use that method because of elevated ammonia in magnesium chloride.

Still, if they make it with the right proportion of chloride to sulfate, I would not see a way that it drives up sulfate relative to chloride.

 

[Lasse]

Seachem has said they use that method because of elevated ammonia in magnesium chloride

Very strange - when i have seen elevated ammonia in magnesium compounds - it have been in ammonium sulphate

Still, if they make it with the right proportion of chloride to sulfate, I would not see a way that it drives up sulfate relative to chloride.

Can they do that without change the anion/cation balance?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tripod1404]

Some basic questions, what are your nitrate phosphate and alkalinity values, and do you use GFO? Also, can you describe how your corals die? Like do you have troches close up, SPS start dying from the tips etc?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very strange - when i have seen elevated ammonia in magnesium compounds - it have been in ammonium sulphate


Can they do that without change the anion/cation balance?

Sincerely Lasse

If the designed it right, it is basically like a balanced chloride/sulfate magnesium supplement, plus extra sodium chloride/sulfate in balance. It can slightly depress everything else: potassium, bromide, etc.

 

[Lasse]

If the designed it right, it is basically like a balanced chloride/sulfate magnesium supplement, plus extra sodium chloride/sulfate in balance. It can slightly depress everything else: potassium, bromide, etc.

Correct me if I´m wrong - I´m not a mathematician or chemist

if they use NaCl in the mix and want to maintain a natural ratio of Cl:S (mg/L) they need to have about 21 times more Cl (mg/L) ions in the solution than S ions (mg/L). I have calculated that if you want to rise your Mg koncentration with 1 mg/L using a mix of MgSO4*7H2O and NaCl and maintain the natural ratio between Cl and S (21:1) then about 10 mg/L MgSO4*7H2O and about 45.5 mg/L NaCl are needed - in other words, that's quite a lot of NaCl.

This also means that the salinity will increase by about 0.056 psu for every mg/L magnesium level increased - a 100 mg/L increase means an increase in salinity of about 5.6 psu. Given that the ICP analysis shows a spot on content of Na and Cl, low salinity and high magnesium + high sulfate, I wonder how much (little) NaCl the product really contains.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let's work through the math.

Randomly pick a 50 ppm boost to magnesium, which is quite a large one time boost.

Magnesium has an mw of 24.3 and sulfate of 96, so sulfate rises by 96/24.2 x 50 ppm = 198 ppm.

To maintain the weight based ratio in normal seawater between sulfate (2700 ppm) and chloride (19,400 ppm) of 19,400/2700 = 7.2 times as much chloride, or 1,422 ppm of chloride.

Sodium chloride is 60.7% chloride, so one would need to add 2,343 ppm of sodium chloride to ensure that the sulfate to chloride ratio does not change.

Since we have added a total of 50 ppm Mg, 198 ppm sulfate, and 2343 ppm of sodium chloride, the total salinity has risen by 2,591 ppm of salinity, or 2.6 ppt.

That's a big salinity rise, and once corrected, all other ions will be depleted by 2.6% relative to the starting point. A good reason to not use this product, and one reason I do not recommend it.

We can see two possible conclusions from this analysis:

1. The product is not designed with the right sulfate to chloride ratio to prevent sulfate from risng relative to chloride.

or

2. It is not the cause of the elevated sulfate relative to chloride

Could also be both, but we do not have the needed info to determine further (IMO).

 

[Reefhaven]

Some basic questions, what are your nitrate phosphate and alkalinity values, and do you use GFO? Also, can you describe how your corals die? Like do you have troches close up, SPS start dying from the tips etc?

My alk is 9.8, nitrate 12.4 and phosphate is 0.07. Currently, using gfo with carbon in reactor. Torches doesn’t even close up. The flesh just starts falling off. Sps starts dying from the tips.

 

[svenop]

A question to figure out is why is your salinity low? Are you mixing your own water and checking it before the WC? Do you have ATO? Is it over filling with RO and diluting?

 

[Reefhaven]

A question to figure out is why is your salinity low? Are you mixing your own water and checking it before the WC? Do you have ATO? Is it over filling with RO and diluting?

i mix my own RO water using fritz salt. i also have an ATO next to my sump.

 

[BryanM]

i mix my own RO water using fritz salt. i also have an ATO next to my sump.

I tried refractometers and the milwakee digital salinity tester.

Finally ended up with a Tropic Marin hydrometer and now my salinity is spot on.

 

[Reefhaven]

I tried refractometers and the milwakee digital salinity tester.

Finally ended up with a Tropic Marin hydrometer and now my salinity is spot on.

i also have a trident as well. probably need to recalibrate the salinity.

 

[Tripod1404]

My alk is 9.8, nitrate 12.4 and phosphate is 0.07. Currently, using gfo with carbon in reactor. Torches doesn’t even close up. The flesh just starts falling off. Sps starts dying from the tips.

Have you tried lowering alk? I always had less issues with alk between 7-8 range.