Trace elements and ICP

[Hans-Werner]

Hello, I am just back from a few days off.

For most trace metalls the detection limits of ICP-OES are far higher than the natural concentrations of transition metals like copper, cobalt, iron, manganese, nickel or zinc.

You have the proper dosage of K+ Elements if strontium is in the proper range and zinc and nickel or one of these is above the detection limit.

Manganese is precipitated by bacteria incredibly fast. It is virtually impossible to keep up with this precipitation and I doubt that the effect would satisfy the effort. In fact manganese is the transition metal with highest concentration in the K+ Elements, much higher than iron. Regular dosage will meet the demands of corals, also if ICP analysis doesn't find it.

For determining the proper dosage of A- Elements I recommend to observe iodine. Concluded from the concentrations of iodine, molybdenum and vanadium you can increase the dosage of A- Elements by at least 50 %, maybe double it. Bromine, which is also in the A- Elements and which consumption usually goes parallel with iodine is already on the high side, according to this analysis.

I recommend to increase the dosage of A- Elements by 50 % in a first step, do an ICP-analysis, look at bromine and maybe increase it to the double dosage. Bromine should not be increased at the same rate as iodine. The instructions of the K+ and A- Elements recommend to increase the dosage up to double the normal dosage at high consumption.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Obviously if I am adding them and and they’re still not detectable something is using them.

or they are precipitating out.

 

[Gtinnel]

or they are precipitation out.

While I suspect that isn’t what is happening with my tank since I wasn’t even up to the minimum recommended dosage amount, is precipitation of trace elements a common occurrence?

 

[Hans-Werner]

While I suspect that isn’t what is happening with my tank since I wasn’t even up to the minimum recommended dosage amount, is precipitation of trace elements a common occurrence?

Asked so directly, I would say yes. If I haven't forgotten something, there seem to be principially two ways trace metals may go: Into the metabolism of some organism or (co-)precipitation. Finally the presence in coral skeletons may be a kind of co-precipitation with calcium carbonate and other carbonates, even if they have fulfilled important functions in calcification before incorporated into the skeletons. Taking this all together, precipitation and co-precipitation by organisms like corals, coralline algae, other algae and bacteria and precipitation without the aid of organisms this seems by far the highest proportion of added trace metals to me.

Although it is a loss of necessary trace elements this precipitation cannot be stopped. So I think we will have to spend most of the added trace metals to different kinds of precipitation to get enough trace elements into the water to also fulfil the metabolic needs of organisms. Maybe it is even an advantage that we do not have to be too precise with trace element dosage: What will not be needed will soon find its way into some kind of precipitate.

By the way, since it is always repeated that trace elements are added with feeds for fish etc.: In the first place, also fish need trace elements for their metabolism and need to incorporate trace elements. If the fish aren't growing and if they aren't deposited inside the fish like for example incorporated into bones, like in other nutrients, most of them will leave the fish again. But after they have left the fish, most will go the same ways as the other nutrients too, into bacteria, algae, skimmer etc.. Without a good balancing it is very hard to say whether trace element addition with feeds is a net win or a net loss. If fish feeds are undersupplied with trace elements and fish adsorb most of the trace elements for their growth, at the end it might even be a net loss.

The image that everything that is added to the aquarium remains in the water seems very inappropriate to me. There is a multitude of ways and webs how nutrients and other substances get into and out of the water. Finally this creates stability by forming a dynamic equilibrium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

While I suspect that isn’t what is happening with my tank since I wasn’t even up to the minimum recommended dosage amount, is precipitation of trace elements a common occurrence?

Yes, regardless of dose it can and will happen. Many trace elements will simply precipitate (eg ferric iron) or bind to organic and inorganic surfaces such as detritus, sand, rock, etc.

 

[Stang67]

Hi there! I am thinking of doing an ICP test myself. I have never done one before and wondered if you thought they were worth the $$. I understand you sent yours off for a specific reason (color of SPS) I was just going to do mine to get a base line of where the new tank is after its first month. then maybe test 2-3 times a year? I wasn't sure what the "normal" process for doing them was. Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[Gtinnel]

Hi there! I am thinking of doing an ICP test myself. I have never done one before and wondered if you thought they were worth the $$. I understand you sent yours off for a specific reason (color of SPS) I was just going to do mine to get a base line of where the new tank is after its first month. then maybe test 2-3 times a year? I wasn't sure what the "normal" process for doing them was. Any help would be much appreciated.

I don’t regret sending it in, if nothing else it’s at least a good way to know if you have some element that is way too high that could cause an issue with the tank. After making this thread I haven’t sent in a second one yet, but that’s just because I haven’t ordered a new kit yet, but I will the next time I place a order with saltwateraquarium.com.
I also only used the cheap Fauna Marin kit, which worked great for me despite seeing a bunch of horrible reviews for it. When I mailed my sample out I received the results exactly one week later. I think a lot of the bad reviews for it are because people dont include enough postage to have it delivered, but I just took mine to the post office and had them do it instead of guessing at the number of stamps I should put on it.

I plan on doing the same thing that you said and continue to send in a few a year.