Trace elements

Azhari06

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Assuming i can control no3 and po4, can i only dose alk/cal/mg with no water change? What will happen if the other trace elements gets low/zero? Soft/lps corals, easy montiporas and clams. My country does not have ICP test.

8months without wc.

788A0C58-595B-4450-9C75-65BF8C493060.jpeg
 
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Dan_P

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Assuming i can control no3 and po4, can i only dose alk/cal/mg with no water change? What will happen if the other trace elements gets low/zero? Soft/lps corals, easy montiporas and clams. My country does not have ICP test.

8months without wc.

788A0C58-595B-4450-9C75-65BF8C493060.jpeg
At some point in time, critical elements will become depleted and the health of your animals will decline. There is no mystery here other than when that point is reached.
 
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Azhari06

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At some point in time, critical elements will become depleted and the health of your animals will decline. There is no mystery here other than when that point is reached.
Does doing big wc (30-40%) every 3 months good enough? I cant do icp test. Currently dosing kalkwasser + aquaforest alk/cal/mg and some coral foods.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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At some point in time, critical elements will become depleted and the health of your animals will decline. There is no mystery here other than when that point is reached.

And with which trace elements it is reached.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Does doing big wc (30-40%) every 3 months good enough? I cant do icp test. Currently dosing kalkwasser + aquaforest alk/cal/mg and some coral foods.

Water changes alone are "good enough", since some reefers do only that.

Optimal? Different question and hard to know, but I expect not.

Which aquaforest product exactly?

This one seems to suggest it actually boosts trace elements beyond the minimal effect of Balling:


"If you use a system like the Probiotic or Balling system, you will want to give the Component 1+, 2+, 3+ system a try for the addition of essential elements."
 
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Azhari06

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Water changes alone are "good enough", since some reefers do only that.

Optimal? Different question and hard to know, but I expect not.

Which aquaforest product exactly?

This one seems to suggest it actually boosts trace elements beyond the minimal effect of Balling:


"If you use a system like the Probiotic or Balling system, you will want to give the Component 1+, 2+, 3+ system a try for the addition of essential elements."
I'm using the standard AF powder Alk/cal/mg. Not using balling method. Long term, will my coral suffer with the lack of trace element? What are the signs? slow growth? slowly dying?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I'm using the standard AF powder Alk/cal/mg. Not using balling method. Long term, will my coral suffer with the lack of trace element? What are the signs? slow growth? slowly dying?

Check the product I linked and see if it what you are using.
 

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Honestly do water changes I believe alot of these supplements are a waste of Money and Better balance with regular water changes. Fancy supplements in even fancier Bottles. Water changes RULE! IMO
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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FWIW, I did regular 1% daily water changes and also dosed iron and silicate.

Here's my conclusions from ICP testing that tank and what impact those procedures had on certain trace elements. I include iodine and silicate for interest, but note that those are not trace elements.


Molybdenum (Mo). Molybdenum is low, and if that is true, it’s an interesting and potentially important result. I don’t typically add any trace elements. I may consider adding some molybdenum as it is biologically important.

Vanadium (V). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of vanadium (1.8 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.9 µg/L. Still, detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing.

Zinc (Zn). The zinc is about spot on, so there’s not much to say about it.

Manganese (Mn). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of manganese (0.17 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.12 µg/L. Detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing, but I have less confidence that this one is really seriously depleted since it is so close to the LOD. But Mn is biologically important and I will consider it.

Iodine (I). I don’t generally think that dosing iodine is useful for me based on my experience in dosing it for years, then stopping and seeing no difference. Many people have had that same experience. I also know that iodide and iodate deplete in my aquarium based on kit testing I’ve done in the past. So it does not surprise me that it is depleted since I do not supplement. Triton also detects organic forms of iodine, so when some folks (maybe especially those not doing water changes or skimming) get very highly elevated levels of iodine, it may be organic forms they are detecting. That is an interesting area to pursue since this sort of test is the only way to do studies on organic iodine levels.

Iron (Fe). The natural iron level varies a lot with depth, but surface seawater may have only 0.006 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.3 µg/L. I dose iron, and when I dose it I boost iron to roughly 1-2 µg/L, which would be detectable. This sample was taken more than a week after the last iron dosing, and none was detected as it gets depleted in the meanwhile. I’ve not yet seen a Triton test result for a real aquarium sample that had detectable iron, but that doesn’t mean these tanks are necessarily deficient. Iron is also a case where the form is critical, and ICP cannot distinguish form. Binding to organic matter, for example, can alter the bioavailability of iron.

Chromium (Cr). Chromium is present in natural seawater at roughly 0.3 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.9 µg/L), so having none detected may be fine. We cannot really tell much, unless there is a substantial excess.

Cobalt (Co). Cobalt is present in natural seawater at roughly 0.006 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.4 µg/L), so having none detected may be fine. We cannot really tell much, unless there is a substantial excess.

Silicon (Si). I dose silicate (as sodium silicate solution) to my aquarium. I boost the concentration to about 200 µg/L of silicon equivalent once a week or so. This water sample was drawn one week after the last dose of silicate. I know from previous studies that silicate is rapidly depleted in my tank, presumably by sponges (the reason I dose it), by diatoms, and possibly by the GFO that I use to bind phosphate.
 
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Azhari06

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OK, that isn't a trace element booster, but trace elements aside, I think you'd be better off switching to a two part system, such as the one I linked.

I'll look into it.

FWIW, I did regular 1% daily water changes and also dosed iron and silicate.

Here's my conclusions from ICP testing that tank and what impact those procedures had on certain trace elements. I include iodine and silicate for interest, but note that those are not trace elements.


Molybdenum (Mo). Molybdenum is low, and if that is true, it’s an interesting and potentially important result. I don’t typically add any trace elements. I may consider adding some molybdenum as it is biologically important.

Vanadium (V). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of vanadium (1.8 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.9 µg/L. Still, detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing.

Zinc (Zn). The zinc is about spot on, so there’s not much to say about it.

Manganese (Mn). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of manganese (0.17 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.12 µg/L. Detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing, but I have less confidence that this one is really seriously depleted since it is so close to the LOD. But Mn is biologically important and I will consider it.

Iodine (I). I don’t generally think that dosing iodine is useful for me based on my experience in dosing it for years, then stopping and seeing no difference. Many people have had that same experience. I also know that iodide and iodate deplete in my aquarium based on kit testing I’ve done in the past. So it does not surprise me that it is depleted since I do not supplement. Triton also detects organic forms of iodine, so when some folks (maybe especially those not doing water changes or skimming) get very highly elevated levels of iodine, it may be organic forms they are detecting. That is an interesting area to pursue since this sort of test is the only way to do studies on organic iodine levels.

Iron (Fe). The natural iron level varies a lot with depth, but surface seawater may have only 0.006 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.3 µg/L. I dose iron, and when I dose it I boost iron to roughly 1-2 µg/L, which would be detectable. This sample was taken more than a week after the last iron dosing, and none was detected as it gets depleted in the meanwhile. I’ve not yet seen a Triton test result for a real aquarium sample that had detectable iron, but that doesn’t mean these tanks are necessarily deficient. Iron is also a case where the form is critical, and ICP cannot distinguish form. Binding to organic matter, for example, can alter the bioavailability of iron.

Chromium (Cr). Chromium is present in natural seawater at roughly 0.3 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.9 µg/L), so having none detected may be fine. We cannot really tell much, unless there is a substantial excess.

Cobalt (Co). Cobalt is present in natural seawater at roughly 0.006 µg/L. The Triton LOD = 0.4 µg/L), so having none detected may be fine. We cannot really tell much, unless there is a substantial excess.

Silicon (Si). I dose silicate (as sodium silicate solution) to my aquarium. I boost the concentration to about 200 µg/L of silicon equivalent once a week or so. This water sample was drawn one week after the last dose of silicate. I know from previous studies that silicate is rapidly depleted in my tank, presumably by sponges (the reason I dose it), by diatoms, and possibly by the GFO that I use to bind phosphate.

Thnks for the reply. I will read the article.
 

taricha

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Does doing big wc (30-40%) every 3 months good enough? I cant do icp test. Currently dosing kalkwasser + aquaforest alk/cal/mg and some coral foods.
You might be able to evaluate that with observing the health of coral, if no ICP test.

Also feeding macroalgae, Nori, Ulva might input useful amounts of trace elements, but the amounts depends somewhat on the conditions under which it was grown.
 

Luv4tangz

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And with which trace elements it is reached.
Randy.. my icp test results say I have very high iodine. I don't dose trace elements to the tank.. I don't know if 20 ml of reef plus from seachem in a 65 gallon reef tank is considered dosing trace elements. Once a week by the way.. it has to be coming from the salt I use.. do you agree? I'm using aquavitro salinity. Should I change salt?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Randy.. my icp test results say I have very high iodine. I don't dose trace elements to the tank.. I don't know if 20 ml of reef plus from seachem in a 65 gallon reef tank is considered dosing trace elements. Once a week by the way.. it has to be coming from the salt I use.. do you agree? I'm using aquavitro salinity. Should I change salt?

How high?

It may come from foods. Nori and other seaweeds contain a lot. That likely was the main source in my tank.

Reef Plus has some, but it hard to say how much because their ingredient list only say the amount, not what volume that represents. Really strange. Idiotic. If they mean the whole bottle, its not enough to be useful.


"Iodine 0.18 mg"

If that's in the whole bottle, and you add the whole bottle all at once to a 100 gallon (379 L) aquarium, it only boosts iodine by 0.18mg /379 L = 0.00047 mg/L (NSW = 0.06 mg/L)
 
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Luv4tangz

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I don't use nori . I only use Feed frozen brine with spurlina. Maybe that's where it's coming from. I do have tangs. Hence my name. Because I love tangs but nori makes a big mess so I don't use it. I run a small refugium with cheato I dose iron to help it grow. Thats all I use in this tank. Aquavitro salinity reef plus once a week and frozen food. Once a day. The hig trace elements in my tank are killing corals. I need to find a solution. I appreciate your response randy. I very much respect your opinion always.
 

Ef4life

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My personal experience with trace elements is they work when you have a large coral load consuming them, and at the point water changes start to become uneconomical and a real pain always mixing saltwater etc.

I have a 40b with a 40b frag tank attached, probably 60g total water. Lots of coral growth and decent sized colonies. I was doing a weekly 5g wc, maybe every 3-4weeks really deep clean and do 10g. Growth just seemed to stall out after a while. The consumption of ca/alk remained pretty static, and stopped increasing. I was just Dosing brs soda ash and calcium.

started with the brs tm hybrid method. Added the a and k to the alk and calcium, and started adding the part c. Almost instantly things started growing faster, my daily consumption amount almost doubled in 2 months.

the only downside I’ve noticed (besides the added cost per month) is I get a lot more salt creep. I feel that it’s whatever extra elements that may be in higher concentration than necessary basically precipitated out. It also blocks up the skimmer air line and I have to clean it out every 2-3 weeks vs 5-6 before
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I don't use nori . I only use Feed frozen brine with spurlina. Maybe that's where it's coming from. I do have tangs. Hence my name. Because I love tangs but nori makes a big mess so I don't use it. I run a small refugium with cheato I dose iron to help it grow. Thats all I use in this tank. Aquavitro salinity reef plus once a week and frozen food. Once a day. The hig trace elements in my tank are killing corals. I need to find a solution. I appreciate your response randy. I very much respect your opinion always.

How high is the iodine?
 
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