Trident FAQ

[Zaffor]

This thread is going further snd further into the abyss! Did i really read someone post that Neptune should have made the classic powerful enough for large upgrades???
Im baffled

 

[ksfulk]

@Terence I wonder what the "amount" of graph I can see in fusion is going to be with the Trident. Assuming you are testing at the rate that was given (4x/2x/2x per day), how much of the testing graph will you get to see? I can only go back a week or so with pH - will there be something similar, or will we get to see a certain number of data points?

For the record, I've been waiting for a real reason to upgrade my Apex from the "gold" to the new version... Im just glad I know that I have 8+ months to do so.

 

[ca1ore]

I'm a classic owner ..... and I'm not upset. Technology moves on and I'd hate to see future innovations constrained based on legacy equipment limitations. While future proofing is an appealing concept, buy technology based on what it can do TODAY; not about what it may or may not be compatible with in the future. I've had my classic for 5 years, and in that time there have been many compatible new modules. It's easy to winge and whine; no real justification for it. The new apex has been out for some time now, so anyone recently buying a classic should have had the sense to know that at some point there'd be incompatible modules - that's just the way tech works.

I have too many eggs in the apex basket to be comfortable with aging kit, so at some point over the next year I'll upgrade to the new apex . I'll wait to see how trident actually performs in people's systems to see it it's worthwhile. As a long time CaRx user I have a very stable 'big 3'.

 

[ca1ore]

I am currently running a calcium reactor. Is there anyway to use the trident to better regulate the reactor?

Excellent question. I see no easy way to do it. Probably just monitoring would be best. In my system I run a big CaRX, but I also have 2-part dosing capability in the event I have to make any material adjustments. Could use trident to tell the brain to goose the dosing. Perhaps there be a way to automatically adjust pH in the reactor - though I have mine adjusted so CO2 runs continuously to maintain desired pH.

 

[Zaffor]

@Terence I wonder what the "amount" of graph I can see in fusion is going to be with the Trident. Assuming you are testing at the rate that was given (4x/2x/2x per day), how much of the testing graph will you get to see? I can only go back a week or so with pH - will there be something similar, or will we get to see a certain number of data points?

For the record, I've been waiting for a real reason to upgrade my Apex from the "gold" to the new version... Im just glad I know that I have 8+ months to do so.

You can scroll back farther in fusion. There is a slider for that. It goes back quite far.

 

[ksfulk]

You can scroll back farther in fusion. There is a slider for that. It goes back quite far.

Yes - I misspoke, I want to see more than one week on the graph at a time. Im curious if there is a limit on the data points that can be displayed on the graph at a time.

 

[frenchie01]

You still got access to the ATK, the apex COR once those come out. But at the relase date of the apex gold, there wasn't a cost effective way of putting the amount of computing power required.

Terrance has said that the cost to upgrade even if made possible would not be cost effective to the consumer. As dumb as you think it sounds, buying the 2016 model now and selling your apex gold is your best path to an upgrade as apex gold can still get around $500 used.

I don't see how it wouldn't be cost effective as the 2016 head unit in the uk is £449 and the whole bundle is £820, that over a £300 saving.

Also the thing that's stopping many people upgrading, especially me, in the uk is that there's no new power bar.
It's been a year since release and there's not even a hint when the rest of the world is going to get this.
We already get 2 less sockets so are already at a disadvantage to those in the us and now we get left behind even more

 

[David Cher]

I don't see how it wouldn't be cost effective as the 2016 head unit in the uk is £449 and the whole bundle is £820, that over a £300 saving.

Also the thing that's stopping many people upgrading, especially me, in the uk is that there's no new power bar.
It's been a year since release and there's not even a hint when the rest of the world is going to get this.
We already get 2 less sockets so are already at a disadvantage to those in the us and now we get left behind even more

in Singapore or Asia we are suffering the same fate.

 

[Tristren]

Last Friday at our 5th Annual MACNA MeetUp we announced a future product, the Trident.

...

There have been many questions and rumors since we announced last week. In this post, I will provide you with as much information as I can as it stands now, regarding the Trident. Please understand that a number of things either have not yet been decided, or we have yet to finish final testing and do not want to put something out there that we may later need to retract.
...

This is great, thanks!

Two things strike me (though I'm still new to the hobby). First is that this is a bigger shift than most seem to be thinking. Second is the different ranges of possibilities this opens up.

For the first one, I think that the key point is that this is not a tester, it's a monitor. I have to say that when I saw this and the recent KH devices my view of them was what others might be holding; this is a great step forward, automating and improving a key part of reef keeping. I saw them as a straight swap for the current method of using a test kit that doesn't work particularly well for me (I don't think I have very good colour sense so I am never sure with them).

But this isn't that. This is a Monitor for the big three. That makes sense for Neptune from what I have seen. This is a device that is continuously tracking the levels of alkalinity, calcium and magnesium to give us a view of how these levels fluctuate over the days and weeks. That info is feed into Fusion where we can chart it and cross reference it against all the other parameters that we already monitor (ph, temp, salinity etc). That level of precision and frequency is something new and might show us trends we didn't know about before. I'm thinking of the work that @Lasse is doing using his high precision PH information.

One of the test companies can (and I'd say likely will now) come out with an "automatic" tester that hobbyists can use on demand to even more quickly a day easily check these parameters without manually adding the reagents. Presumably looking like either a digital refractometers or a beefed up checker.

The second piece is what next? I don't actually mean all of the possibilities in terms of controlling dosing or reactors. This is plugged into the Apex so that's a given eventually. I mean that now that you have created an effective reagent based monitor, why stop with these three parameters? What about nitrate and phosphate?


So thanks for moving the hobby forward again!


Tony

 

[jason2459]

@Tristren thanks for bringing the conversation back to the device itself. There is a robo testing machine in prototype now too that you are imagining. I'll be looking at that one closely. Very interesting times.

There's another device that's been through a lot like a failed kickstarter that continually monitors several parameters is coming as well. They say it will be out 2018 now.

Then yes there's already a continuous alk testing device out that can tie into other controllers like the Apex. Price tag held me off on that and glad I did.

I'm way more happy to wait now knowing this Trident is coming out with the additional testing parameters. Something another controller that's coming out with Ca and Alk isn't currently saying they will do.

And if any one is familiar with my testing shootout series threads this will be fun in 2018.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I'm way more happy to wait now knowing this Trident is coming out with the additional testing parameters.

I saw this suggested in some of the comments, but I missed where Neptune said this was a sure thing. Was there an official statement to this effect? That would be an excellent next step.

 

[jason2459]

I saw this suggested in some of the comments, but I missed where Neptune said this was a sure thing. Was there an official statement to this effect? That would be an excellent next step.

Someone posted a picture of the powerpoint presentation at macna announcing Ca, alk, and Mg. Initially it was thought to be just alk as Jim's video showed from last year's MACNA.

Plus first post FAQ

Last Friday at our 5th Annual MACNA MeetUp we announced a future product, the Trident.

The Trident is based on a alkalinity testing technology we acquired from Jim Welsh a few months after MACNA 2016 and, with Jim's continued help, we have made incredible leaps forward from just testing Alkalinity. The Trident automates the testing of Alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium.

There have been many questions and rumors since we announced last week. In this post, I will provide you with as much information as I can as it stands now, regarding the Trident. Please understand that a number of things either have not yet been decided, or we have yet to finish final testing and do not want to put something out there that we may later need to retract.

So here is the FAQ for the Trident as it stands today:

What does the Trident measure?
The Trident was designed for reefkeepers. It tests for the three things that are the building blocks of coral skeletons in our reef tanks (and what our customers have been asking about for years): Alkalinity (dKH), Calcium, and Magnesium.

What are the connections?
The Trident connects to your Apex via a 1LINK connection, or via the AquaBus with an external power supply. It also has two tubes out the back, one to draw sample water from your tank, and the other to send waste to a container or a drain.

Does it have a pH probe inside?
No, the Trident has no pH probe inside that might require frequent calibration.

How does it work?
The Trident basically automates the proven method that you (and scientists) already know and use - Titration. Since the Trident uses micro-drops delivered via a stepper-motor driven peristaltic pump along with an electric eye, we have taken the human element out of the equation.

So, how accurate is it?
The Trident produces amazingly consistent results. Alkalinity is +/- 0.05 dKH and both Calcium and Magnesium are +/- 10ppm

How long will the reagent last?
The default testing schedule is 4x Alkalinity tests per day and 2x Magnesium and Calcium tests per day. At that rate the reagents will cost about $20/month. That's a per test cost less than any other test kit on the market today.

Can I test more or less frequently than that?
Yes, within limits. There are operational limits on both ends. Obviously the test takes time so only so many can be fit in a day. Also, once unsealed, the reagents will have a more shortened lifespan. That said we are fairly confident that you should be able to run less tests and get two months out of one set of reagents.

How much will the reagents cost?
Reagents will be ready-to-use (nothing to mix up), sold in two-month kits and cost ~$40.

How much tank sample water is taken?
Compared to products that only do alkalinity testing, the Trident uses very little tank water for its samples and produces very little waste. While most testing systems shown to date create 50-90ml of waste per test, the Trident produces under 15ml of waste for all three tests (Alk, Ca, Mg).

Is the Trident a standalone system?
No, the Trident requires the latest Apex to operate. However, the Trident does not require any external devices like dosing pumps and does not require any outside vessels for reagent or rinse water.

Why won't the Trident work with the previous Apex models like the Apex Classic?
With the advancement of technology, many times the resources available in prior systems is just not adequate for new devices. We see that with iPhones, gaming consoles, TVs, and many other devices in our lives. There are two key reasons why the Trident will not work with the Apex Classic. 1. Every Apex system must contain the working software for all the devices in the ecosystem. More complicated devices like the Energy Bar 832 and the Trident take up a great deal of code space. More than that is available on the previous Apex models. 2. The Energy Bar 832 and the Trident require more computational horsepower to operate than what is available in the now 10-year-old-designed Apex Classic hardware.

But you said that you would not leave Apex Classic owners behind?
And we haven't. Since the new Apex was released last year, we have developed a new module (FMM) and many more features in the Apex Fusion cloud service that everyone can take advantage of. At the time of launch last year I said that the only device at that time that would not work was the Energy Bar 832 and that nothing else was in the works at that time - but something could come along. And it did - subsequent to MACNA last year. And remember, we even made the COR compatible with the Apex Classic.

Will the new Apex Base Unit be available separately?
At this point our demand for complete Apex Systems is so great that we cannot shift the supply to selling the Apex Base Units on their own. This may happen down the road, but customers should realize that the value in getting a complete new Apex System will always be greater than buying the components individually. The new Apex System also comes with the advanced Energy Bar 832 and a set of our new double-junction probes that many customers might need to replace anyways. And remember, the new Apex is backward compatible with all of your existing Neptune Systems products.

How big is the Trident?
When we designed the Trident we wanted to make it as self-contained as possible. This meant that we wanted all the hardware and all of the reagents to be contained under a single, attractive enclosure. No tubes going this direction or that. No bottles to have to hide. We were able accomplish this in a space of just 4"W x 10"H x 12"D. The Trident should fit nicely under the stands of most aquariums. We intend on having an optional wall bracket available as well.

How much will the Trident cost?
No firm pricing will be released at this time, but we are committed to bring this to market between $500 and $600.

When will it be available?
We hope to have units in the hands of our Neptune Systems Insiders by the end of Q1/2018 and have it available to the general public in Q2/2018.

 

[jason2459]

Here it is

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Someone posted a picture of the powerpoint presentation at macna announcing Ca, alk, and Mg. Initially it was thought to be just alk as Jim's video showed from last year's MACNA.

Plus first post FAQ

Ok. I did know about the big 3. I misread your post to say they were planning to roll out additional parameters (in addition to alk, cal, and mag).

 

[jason2459]

Ok. I did know about the big 3. I misread your post to say they were planning to roll out additional parameters (in addition to alk, cal, and mag).

Oh sorry, that would be nice but the big 3 is awesomeness enough for now. But add in nitrate and phosphate and

 

[MnFish1]

Reading through some of these posts, you guys make it seem that neptune is secretly trying to take over the world and take us all down!

Both of the Trident threads i have been following have turned into a public lashing. It's disconcerting reading now negative some folks can be while the announcement for this thing was just a few days ago!!

Yet, Zaffor, many of your posts on this thread can be read as somewhat negative also. This is not said to be offensive, just to point out - you perceive other peoples posts to be 'negative' because you disagree with their point of view. It works both ways. The statements above seem to be designed to provoke a dramatic response - I have not seen the comments 'from the other side' to be anything close to' a public lashing', for example.

I dont know of any aquarium company who would just take back thousands of old product and just upgrade them to the new models.

I don't see many people (if any) requesting Neptune to 'take products back and upgrade them to the new models'. I see people asking to have Neptune sell them a piece of equipment at a price fair to Neptune (the brain) so they can upgrade their Apex System without having to buy new probes, etc. that they feel they don't need. I happen to agree with Terrence - that it makes more sense to just buy a new system because the probes expire, other new products might not be compatible with the old energy bar. Other people feel differently. That does not make them wrong and you (or me) correct.

All of the give and take is good for Neptune and consumers.

 

[Fritzhamer]

For some perspective: the Cor was announced in 2015 and I can't buy one yet. While you don't need new probes today, there is a good liklihood that you will before the Trident is available for sale. I hope they can test and get this ready for prime time by Q2 2018 but they may not. It may end up being the end of 2018 or maybe even Q2 of 2019 before you can order one.

By then they may sell the head unit separately or maybe you'll be able to run it with a 1link. Maybe a firmware update will add so many features to the 2016 that you'll have upgraded anyway. There are too many hypotheticals to get upset about a product that may be available in six months.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

For some perspective: the Cor was announced in 2015 and I can't buy one yet. While you don't need new probes today, there is a good liklihood that you will before the Trident is available for sale. I hope they can test and get this ready for prime time by Q2 2018 but they may not. It may end up being the end of 2018 or maybe even Q2 of 2019 before you can order one.

By then they may sell the head unit separately or maybe you'll be able to run it with a 1link. Maybe a firmware update will add so many features to the 2016 that you'll have upgraded anyway. There are too many hypotheticals to get upset about a product that may be available in six months.

This is kind of where my current thoughts are as well. Still a lot of variables in play that will affect my ultimate decision.

 

[jason2459]

I have a spot for the COR but I bought another pump until the COR comes out. I wasn't about to put other things on hold. I know some people tried to and got frustrated. I can see their point of view. The COR was touted several years before and still not released and no release dates ever announced.

The Trident is a little different. Its not like this is critical or necessary for other equipment to run. It's really going to be nice for some people and can have some interesting results with what can be done with the information it provides. But there's some people that rarely ever test these parameters. I don't unless I have some wild hair up my behind testing things and doing some experiment.

I'm perfectly fine waiting and unlike the COR the Trident actually has a tentative date next year some time. The CORs release was hush and I still haven't heard a tentative release time? Maybe there is now since MACNA?

 

[deaclauderdale]

I'll be getting a new Apex in the near future, and frankly the only reason I haven't pulled the trigger is because I find it's form factor highly unappealing. I also won't be purchasing the Trident as I own and I'm very happy with my KH Guardian. With that being said I'm appreciative of the fact that Neptune and other company's continue to push technology forward in our hobby. It's been stated a million times in various threads that we dump so much money into our livestock what's the problem with dumping money into products that help us to maintain and monitor and produce the most prestige environment possible for the livestock.

My 2 cents.