Trident FAQ

[griff500]

Jim's device was a standalone device. It connected to the Apex via it's pH port. The Trident uses much of the same methods and algorithms as Jim's design but it does not share the same hardware and of course it does three times as many parameters. One should think of Jim's device as proof of concept and not something that was designed for the market.

Sure, it proved the concept of having a device that could test and then output the data. As I said, it was a commercial decision to do it like this, as it could also have been designed as a standalone unit that could provide the data to all Apex units. It might be that the price point you wanted to hit and the margin you want to make meant it was better for you to do the processing and control in the Apex head unit, but it isn't the only way Neptune could have chosen to do it.

You'll appreciate that there is a decent sized market of Classic owners and lots won't be upgrading the head unit just to get the Trident. I would have thought an upgrade path should have been considered from the beginning (which hasn't arrived yet).

 

[CuseReefer]

There will be many products that will be coming out that will be supporting interface to APEX via the ph/ORP BNC port. The kg monitor and alkatronic monitors both interface this way and many more will be coming. Honestly this is the path I'll be taking since it won't require upgrading to the 2016 apex.

 

[griff500]

There will be many products that will be coming out that will be supporting interface to APEX via the ph/ORP BNC port. The kg monitor and alkatronic monitors both interface this way and many more will be coming. Honestly this is the path I'll be taking since it won't require upgrading to the 2016 apex.

Super. I'm with you then - someone else will get my money if the price point is right. If I want to upgrade the head then I'll be more likely to switch entirely to GHL. Just had a look and they have announced the KH Director - it apparently works with their doser (and other dosers) and it will be interesting to see how the price works out (and it will work with the new and the old Profilux). Having said that, the pH probe method would require calibration so it isn't necessarily my favourite method and it will be interesting to see how it works over time.

Interesting times!

 

[Terence]

The fact that you can create a single parameter testing device, standalone, and then emulate a pH probe is not the same as creating a device at a much lower price point that can do 3x the parameters.

I guess what you are suggesting is that we cost burden the Trident by making it standalone (regardless of the many thousands of already existing Apex users that would not need it standalone) and then somehow equip everyone's Apexs at no cost with three additional pH probe ports?

This is an argument not worth having as the Trident is providing three times the testing, with less cost, for thousands of existing and future Apex customers.

 

[Terence]

And, BTW, using a pH probe as a logging method for these parameters introduces even more error. Why? Because the device creates digital data then must create an analog signal that then must go across the wire as an analog signal (voltage) and then the Apex must take the analog signal it receives (which now could be different) and convert it back to a digital value.

Just thought people should understand that process.

 

[frenchie01]

This is an argument not worth having as the Trident is providing three times the testing, with less cost, for thousands of existing and future Apex customers.

Except us in the uk who will probably need to 2 years after us release, like everything else apex releases

 

[MnFish1]

The fact that you can create a single parameter testing device, standalone, and then emulate a pH probe is not the same as creating a device at a much lower price point that can do 3x the parameters.

I guess what you are suggesting is that we cost burden the Trident by making it standalone (regardless of the many thousands of already existing Apex users that would not need it standalone) and then somehow equip everyone's Apexs at no cost with three additional pH probe ports?

This is an argument not worth having as the Trident is providing three times the testing, with less cost, for thousands of existing and future Apex customers.

No offense. You have a product to sell - and it looks like a great product. But in all honesty, 1/3 of the parameters you are testing are being over tested/monitored (I know - my opinion only others will disagree). I don't completely agree with your claim that measuring Mg 2/day is anywhere near as useful as measuring/monitoring Alk 4x/day. The same point could be made about calcium but perhaps to a lesser extent. So to say 'it measures 3 x the parameters' as if all 3 are equally important is a good marketing slogan - but realistically it doesn't make sense when one is trying to decide which alkalinity monitoring system to buy. So - IMHO (and I'm just one customer - who already has a 2016 model and thus no axe to grind on the upgrade front, would there be any utility in Neptune selling a standalone Alk monitor (whether its backwards compatible to the classic system doesn't matter to me) at a lower price point which would mean - less reagent cost, simpler design, less to go wrong/maintain on the users end. Again - this is not a complaint or criticism - but a question.

 

[CuseReefer]

Yes there is some small error introduced when you convert from digital to analog using a DAC but the margin of error shouldn't be to great. Plus meters like dk monitor and alkatronic have their own internal controllers so if you need precision then you can always use that to verify it or even calibrate the ph port with. Yes you won't have as good of resolution but still I would expect to be in the 0.1-0.2 dkh resolution which is more than enough for my needs.

And, BTW, using a pH probe as a logging method for these parameters introduces even more error. Why? Because the device creates digital data then must create an analog signal that then must go across the wire as an analog signal (voltage) and then the Apex must take the analog signal it receives (which now could be different) and convert it back to a digital value.

Just thought people should understand that process.

 

[Reefcowboy]

Terence,

When will we see more functioning details of the Trident?We all only have that same picture from Macna! I guess for now for obvious reasons we can only have the buzz as its still very new and proprietary, but it would be great to learn how it will be mounted, line going in/out the sump, etc...

Any details you can give this far?

 

[griff500]

The fact that you can create a single parameter testing device, standalone, and then emulate a pH probe is not the same as creating a device at a much lower price point that can do 3x the parameters.

I guess what you are suggesting is that we cost burden the Trident by making it standalone (regardless of the many thousands of already existing Apex users that would not need it standalone) and then somehow equip everyone's Apexs at no cost with three additional pH probe ports?

This is an argument not worth having as the Trident is providing three times the testing, with less cost, for thousands of existing and future Apex customers.

Well, it's not a lower price point as you must have the new Apex to use it, so that has to be taken into account when considering the cost.

Three times the testing, while true, isn't really what I need. Calcium is nice I suppose, but not needed all that often for me as I use a calcium reactor. Magnesium? I'm really not interested in monitoring that on a daily basis.

I'm guessing there are far more Classic users than 2016 users. Making it standalone could have got more people into your ecosystem without forcing the issue and would have made it compatible with all of your loyal user base. But it's not worth arguing and I'm not looking for an argument - just letting you know how this Neptune customer feels about it. It will make me look elsewhere in the reasonably near future, not that I expect the UK to get this for quite some time after the US gets it (still waiting for the flow monitoring and ATK, but I'm likely to avoid those now anyway).

Just some feedback.

 

[Terence]

There is no way we could bring a single parameter standalone device to market for under $500. Functionally adding the other two parameters did not add that much, incrementally to the cost of our Trident. So, since so many people have asked for all three, why not.

If not being standalone or not being able to work with the Apex Classic is the trade off for three parameters at $500-600, that was the trade off we were willing to make.

As far as precision and the pH port DAC conversion, yes, if you are looking for .1-.2 DKh precision then you should not worry about it. The Trident will be doing .05.

 

[frenchie01]

When's the uk going to see the trident?

 

[Terence]

When's the uk going to see the trident?

Our products generally release to markets outside NA around 90 days subsequent to their NA release.

 

[MnFish1]

There is no way we could bring a single parameter standalone device to market for under $500. Functionally adding the other two parameters did not add that much, incrementally to the cost of our Trident. So, since so many people have asked for all three, why not.

If not being standalone or not being able to work with the Apex Classic is the trade off for three parameters at $500-600, that was the trade off we were willing to make.

As far as precision and the pH port DAC conversion, yes, if you are looking for .1-.2 DKh precision then you should not worry about it. The Trident will be doing .05.

Thanks for replying and explaining the rationale. FWIW - I wasn't asking about a 'standalone' device or one what worked with classic. I was wondering about a device that would work with Apex 2016 for solely testing alkalinity without the other 2 parameters - whether that device would be simpler/easier to maintain and less expensive from a reagent standpoint for the end user. But I gather from your answer that adding the other 2 didn't add to the price of the device itself, and therefore Ca and Mg were added. But - my guess is that adding the 2 does add to the cost of the reagents used for the testing.

Would it be possible to maintain/use the Trident in this manner? i.e. without testing Ca/Mg just alkalinity? Which also gets into the issue of the reagents themselves (and fully understand if you don't know the answers to these questions yet) - will they be able to be purchased separately (i.e. alk alone) in case one does not want to test as frequently the other parameters? For example - Lets say someone is doing 4/day alk and Ca weekly and mg Monthly. The Alk will run out in a month. The others will not. I think, from reading your other posts, I understand that either way, the Ca/Mg reagents will be need to be changed at a set level whether a given bottle is used up or not, due to maintaining proper accuracy of the Trident.

 

[psirex]

Ok this is rather epic (at least to me).....

 

[DBR_Reef]

Functionally adding the other two parameters did not add that much, incrementally to the cost of our Trident. So, since so many people have asked for all three, why not.

This is awesome and I'm definitely in. I was going to build one myself until I heard that Neptune was working on one-- you probably saved my job, my relationship, and thousands of dollars by preventing me from spending two months of my life on it
I was however wondering if you were looking at a tester for nitrate and phosphate. Even better, since it is only reactants and code, might we be able to choose three of five to test for in the future? Because that would be super incredible-- i just feel that alk, nitrate, and phosphate are the most important parameters to test for- at least for me (Calc I can tie to alk, and mag stays pretty steady). I know I'm asking a lot- but I can always ask, right?

 

[Terence]

Thanks for the positivity guys. Sorry but I cannot give the detailed answers to many of your questions at this time simply because we either do not have enough information, or it is just not something I care to comment on.

Realize too it is likely that whatever scenario you come up with for how we "could" have created this amazing product, we've already considered it. There were many things to weigh here to go one direction or another. We understand that the directions we decided to go will not fit everyones needs. That is never possible with a product.

For now, we have not yet developed the more advanced software routines for using the data the Trident provides. I am excited for that part for sure.

 

[Amoo]

@Terence Thank for for taking the time that you have to explain. I think we all know some of the issues both you personally face here and Neptune has as a company with this product and I think the community is making their voice heard on those.

I have a question about accuracy. When you say you're measuring dKH to .05 accuracy, how is that accuracy determined? Is that repeat-ability. Accuracy as determined by some super expensive test equipment or high end procedure? I'm trying to compare apples to apples here, so if one each one of these KH monitors on the market says they level Alk within an accuracy of X number, how are you guys determining that. I know y0u can't speak for how other companies have done there, but I'm asking how you guys determined that.

 

[Terence]

@Terence I know y0u can't speak for how other companies have done there, but I'm asking how you guys determined that.

Can't get into the exact methods here. Just know that we understand how important precision is to a successful product and every step in our development and testing for this product has that as key criteria.

 

[Terence]

This is awesome and I'm definitely in. I was going to build one myself until I heard that Neptune was working on one-- you probably saved my job, my relationship, and thousands of dollars by preventing me from spending two months of my life on it

This is so funny. You should talk to Jim Welsh about this - hahaha.