TTM failure! Learn from my mistake

[ThePlummer]

It's always embarrassing to admit you've made a stupid mistake. However, I've learned that when I share my mistakes with others, they don't make the same. This is one of those topics for those that do Parasite eradication by TTM (Tank Transfer Method), opposed to 'Ick Management'.

I've been refining my quarantine protocol for two years now, and have come to what I believe is the most efficient and inexpensive way to perform this type of method. I'm not going to describe the method in this first post, and will only do so, if someone expresses interest in knowing.

I am however, going to describe the typical 76 day fallow period for inverts and corals. I currently use a Innovative Marine 14 peninsula tank for all coral/inverts. I've never had a failure, till earlier this week. I had a bubble tip anemone that had completed the 76 day QT, but had 2 small coral frags added about a month ago.

My usual protocol for this scenario is to remove the coral/invert from the contaminated tank and place it in a new water 5 gallon bucket for 24 hours. Knowing that there isn't any livestock that Ick can continue to produce new encrusted 'eggs', I know that the item I'm removing won't have any on it. However, that doesn't mean that there might be some 'swimmers' in the water, and they may be clinging to, or in the water as I do the change.

Needless to say, that was my failure this time. I placed the bubble tip directly in my display tank, wet arm and all... thinking... Ehh, it'll be alright.... WRONG!!!

Three days later, my powder Blue Tang had two spots on it's side... Now, I like keeping a powder blue/brown in my display, as they act like 'The canary in the coal mine' and will most likely be the first fish to show you that you have a problem.

*sidenote* Invest in a fish trap for just such emergencies. When you detect a problem, you probably won't be able to catch the little guy. Put the trap in the tank, and immediately stop feeding and only feed INSIDE the trap. Get them used to having to go into the trap to feed. You will be able to catch the one you want without destroying your aquascape.

Took me two days to catch the powder blue, and I think (not totally positive) that I caught it before one of the ick 'ticks' dropped off... It immediately went back into the normal TTM protocall. A day later, a Tomini Tang displayed one Ick 'tick' and caught him within that day, as all the livestock had already been acclimated to feeding from the trap. The Tomini immediately went into a separate TTM QT system.

None of the other livestock has displayed any signs of any further issues, so far.

The plan is that once the two in QT are finished, I'm going to put them (one each) in the two Innovative marine 20 peninsula's that I have. There is a benefit to running multiple systems. It gives you flexibility to make rapid moves, and those small AIO's are easy to take care of, and just keep some smaller fish in them for just such events.

If, after a month, my display doesn't show any signs of further Ick outbreak, the plan is to put the powder blue back in the display tank and monitor it very closely. If the tank shows any signs within that month, ALL the remaining livestock will have to be removed and allow the tank to be fallow for the standard 76 days. If the powder blue does contract Ick again, I will also have to remove and QT all the livestock.

My hopes are, that if the powder blue doesn't show any signs, I figure I was able to catch the ick outbreak BEFORE any matured and dropped into the substrate to breed.

Hope this helps anyone in the future.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It's always embarrassing to admit you've made a stupid mistake. However, I've learned that when I share my mistakes with others, they don't make the same. This is one of those topics for those that do Parasite eradication by TTM (Tank Transfer Method), opposed to 'Ick Management'.

I've been refining my quarantine protocol for two years now, and have come to what I believe is the most efficient and inexpensive way to perform this type of method. I'm not going to describe the method in this first post, and will only do so, if someone expresses interest in knowing.

I am however, going to describe the typical 76 day fallow period for inverts and corals. I currently use a Innovative Marine 14 peninsula tank for all coral/inverts. I've never had a failure, till earlier this week. I had a bubble tip anemone that had completed the 76 day QT, but had 2 small coral frags added about a month ago.

My usual protocol for this scenario is to remove the coral/invert from the contaminated tank and place it in a new water 5 gallon bucket for 24 hours. Knowing that there isn't any livestock that Ick can continue to produce new encrusted 'eggs', I know that the item I'm removing won't have any on it. However, that doesn't mean that there might be some 'swimmers' in the water, and they may be clinging to, or in the water as I do the change.

Needless to say, that was my failure this time. I placed the bubble tip directly in my display tank, wet arm and all... thinking... Ehh, it'll be alright.... WRONG!!!

Three days later, my powder Blue Tang had two spots on it's side... Now, I like keeping a powder blue/brown in my display, as they act like 'The canary in the coal mine' and will most likely be the first fish to show you that you have a problem.

*sidenote* Invest in a fish trap for just such emergencies. When you detect a problem, you probably won't be able to catch the little guy. Put the trap in the tank, and immediately stop feeding and only feed INSIDE the trap. Get them used to having to go into the trap to feed. You will be able to catch the one you want without destroying your aquascape.

Took me two days to catch the powder blue, and I think (not totally positive) that I caught it before one of the ick 'ticks' dropped off... It immediately went back into the normal TTM protocall. A day later, a Tomini Tang displayed one Ick 'tick' and caught him within that day, as all the livestock had already been acclimated to feeding from the trap. The Tomini immediately went into a separate TTM QT system.

None of the other livestock has displayed any signs of any further issues, so far.

The plan is that once the two in QT are finished, I'm going to put them (one each) in the two Innovative marine 20 peninsula's that I have. There is a benefit to running multiple systems. It gives you flexibility to make rapid moves, and those small AIO's are easy to take care of, and just keep some smaller fish in them for just such events.

If, after a month, my display doesn't show any signs of further Ick outbreak, the plan is to put the powder blue back in the display tank and monitor it very closely. If the tank shows any signs within that month, ALL the remaining livestock will have to be removed and allow the tank to be fallow for the standard 76 days. If the powder blue does contract Ick again, I will also have to remove and QT all the livestock.

My hopes are, that if the powder blue doesn't show any signs, I figure I was able to catch the ick outbreak BEFORE any matured and dropped into the substrate to breed.

Hope this helps anyone in the future.

Thanks for sharing! The idea of holding invertebrates in a separate tank for 24 to 72 hours is called "depuration" and a similar technique is used to make live shellfish safer for people to eat raw. However, the key word is "safer", it isn't a 100% process.

My only concern here is that while you have pulled the tangs showing ich, the other fish in the tank could be essentially "managing" ich, and when you add the tangs back, the tangs may get reinfected.

Are you really confident of your diagnosis? Sometimes folks see a random white spot on a fish and jump into action thinking it is ich, when it is a mucus blob (or even a grain of sand in some instances, though I'm sure you know that difference).

Jay

 

[ThePlummer]

Thanks for sharing! The idea of holding invertebrates in a separate tank for 24 to 72 hours is called "depuration" and a similar technique is used to make live shellfish safer for people to eat raw. However, the key word is "safer", it isn't a 100% process.

My only concern here is that while you have pulled the tangs showing ich, the other fish in the tank could be essentially "managing" ich, and when you add the tangs back, the tangs may get reinfected.

Are you really confident of your diagnosis? Sometimes folks see a random white spot on a fish and jump into action thinking it is ich, when it is a mucus blob (or even a grain of sand in some instances, though I'm sure you know that difference).

Jay

I agree on 'managing ick'... That's what I DON'T want to do, for I've been running a completely sterile environment for almost 3 years now, and don't want to go back to 'managing' a problem.

My theory (a little lazy on my part) is that because powder blues are Ick magnets, they are essentially 'The canary in the coal mine' for the reefing hobby. I'll feel pretty confident that I caught the issue early enough, IF the powder doesn't get reinfected again, and the rest of the livestock won't need to go back to the TTM QT...

I'm all about doing it right, but I do like to 'cut corners' when it makes sense to do so.

Yes, I'm sure they had ick, I watched the spots grow while I was trying to catch them.... I just hope I caught the fish BEFORE the Ick dropped off into the tank.

We will see, I guess. If this hobby wasn't such a challenge, I suppose I wouldn't do it...LOL

 

[Squidward]

Good luck! TTM is my go to method. Any updates?

 

[ThePlummer]

Good luck! TTM is my go to method. Any updates?

Both tangs have made it through TTM just fine, they are currently living in a sterile 20g. I haven’t seen any of the other fish in the 40 exhibit any signs of Ick so far. Been monitoring several times a day.
Going to reintroduce the powder blue in a few weeks, to verify if I caught the mistake before a encrusted egg made it’s way to the system.
If the blue gets infected again, then I know I have to go fallow with that tank and QT the remaining fish.

 

[Steve180]

I agree on 'managing ick'... That's what I DON'T want to do, for I've been running a completely sterile environment for almost 3 years now, and don't want to go back to 'managing' a problem.

My theory (a little lazy on my part) is that because powder blues are Ick magnets, they are essentially 'The canary in the coal mine' for the reefing hobby. I'll feel pretty confident that I caught the issue early enough, IF the powder doesn't get reinfected again, and the rest of the livestock won't need to go back to the TTM QT...

I'm all about doing it right, but I do like to 'cut corners' when it makes sense to do so.

Yes, I'm sure they had ick, I watched the spots grow while I was trying to catch them.... I just hope I caught the fish BEFORE the Ick dropped off into the tank.

We will see, I guess. If this hobby wasn't such a challenge, I suppose I wouldn't do it...LOL

How do you do TTM without hurting or stressing the fish out? newb here

 

[Triggreef]

Unfortunately this all seems flawed based on the life cycle. If you put something in that had a cyst on it and that cyst hatched it would have put hundreds of ich parasites into your system. The first and easiest place for them to get your fish is the gills and you can't visually see those. So for some to be on the fish skin there is almost certainly some in the gills of any fish in the system.

It sucks and its bad news but your choice is to pull all fish and fallow, and re quarantine them.... Or just say screw it and manage your tank with ich.

Kudos on learning the ttm and studying up on qt.

 

[ThePlummer]

How do you do TTM without hurting or stressing the fish out? newb here

I use white 5 gallon buckets. The white buckets act like a deprivation chamber and the fish don’t seem to show stress.
You MUST use a wave pump, pointing up, on the lowest setting, a small heater, and use a white lid with a couple 1.5” holes drilled in the center top for night time (to keep them from jumping out, or a cat if you have one.

My favorite wave pump is innovative marine’s mini pumps. I have 4 dedicated to the TTM operation, so I can run 2 separate QT’s at the same time.
The protocol goes like this:

When I bring a new FISH (only, corals/inverts have a different protocol) Drip acclimate into a 1gallon pitcher, from the tank the fish will ultimately wind up in. This is critical in the operation.
While you are acclimating, hang a clear plastic container, like fish stores use to catch fish with, with RODI water. I put a small heater to speed up the temp transfer.
Once the fish is acclimated to your water, with 1/2 gallon in the pitcher, add Hydroplex to the pitcher. 10 minute dip. Then freshwater dip for 10 minutes. This is for parasites like flukes. It will also remove some mature ick and velvet.
Once the FW is done, the fish goes into the bucket for 36 hrs (use water from the tank the fish will ultimately wind up in). Replace the water from the DT with new fresh SW. Add a bit of Ammoloc and paraguard.
After 36 hrs, move fish to a new bucket of water from the DT, this time WITHOUT Paraguard, but use Ammoloc.
Do 4 36 hr holds. On your third 36 hr transfer add Paraguard again. This is for Velvet eradication.
Now do 3 more 76 hr transfer with no paraguard, but always use Ammoloc.
Once you’ve completed the 15 day QT, your fish is now sterile and can be added directly to your DT, because you’ve always used water from your DT to do the transfers.
Remember to always wash the contaminated equipment and dry thoroughly before reusing it again, and always wash your hands well after you’ve had your hands in the contaminated water.

 

[ThePlummer]

Unfortunately this all seems flawed based on the life cycle. If you put something in that had a cyst on it and that cyst hatched it would have put hundreds of ich parasites into your system. The first and easiest place for them to get your fish is the gills and you can't visually see those. So for some to be on the fish skin there is almost certainly some in the gills of any fish in the system.

It sucks and its bad news but your choice is to pull all fish and fallow, and re quarantine them.... Or just say screw it and manage your tank with ich.

Kudos on learning the ttm and studying up on qt.

You don’t understand. I took a anemone that was done out of the invert QT as there is no possible to have a cyst on it. The only way their were any cysts were from the two frags that hadn’t been in the same QT for the same amount of time, 76 days. There was obviously some that had recently hatched and swimming in the Invert QT. And I got some of them on my hands, because I DIDN’T do a 24 hr QT in another bucket (to let any swimmers die off) before I put the anemone in the DT.

that was the whole point of this cautionary post.

 

[Triggreef]

You don’t understand. I took a anemone that was done out of the invert QT as there is no possible to have a cyst on it. The only way their were any cysts were from the two frags that hadn’t been in the same QT for the same amount of time, 76 days. There was obviously some that had recently hatched and swimming in the Invert QT. And I got some of them on my hands, because I DIDN’T do a 24 hr QT in another bucket (to let any swimmers die off) before I put the anemone in the DT.

that was the whole point of this cautionary post.

If that's the case, then I'd still say that it would have gotten into gills first, before ever getting into a fishes skin. Kind of crazy if that's really how it got into your tank. So many things would have had to line up.

 

[Tamberav]

If ich comes back… a large UV and peroxide dosing has been effective for some to cure parasites.

How To - Peroxide (H2O2) dosing for parasites in reef tank

***Current dosing recommendation for active outbreaks, using 3% hydrogen peroxide*** (a TLDR for people who just need to know how to get started) Week 1: 1mL/8g, 3x per day Week 2: 1mL/5g, 3x per day Week 3: 1mL/5g, 3x per day, plus overnight dosing. Continue the week 3 dosing regimen for a...

humble.fish

 

[Trailermann]

.... The protocol goes like this:
....Once the FW is done, the fish goes into the bucket for 36 hrs (use water from the tank the fish will ultimately wind up in). Replace the water from the DT with new fresh SW. Add a bit of Ammoloc and paraguard.
After 36 hrs, move fish to a new bucket of water from the DT, this time WITHOUT Paraguard, but use Ammoloc....

Yes, a few questions.
Wouldn't the ammonia build up over three days while using Ammoloc? Can you use the API ammonia test?
Wouldn't the fish be less stressed if sterile 10 gallon tanks were used instead of the 5 gallon buckets?
Wouldn't an observation period after the TTM be necessary?
Any advice for introducing the new fish into the DT?

 

[ThePlummer]

If that's the case, then I'd still say that it would have gotten into gills first, before ever getting into a fishes skin. Kind of crazy if that's really how it got into your tank. So many things would have had to line up.

Agreed, gills first. And yes, it's crazy, but that's how things go for me.

 

[ThePlummer]

If ich comes back… a large UV and peroxide dosing has been effective for some to cure parasites.

How To - Peroxide (H2O2) dosing for parasites in reef tank

***Current dosing recommendation for active outbreaks, using 3% hydrogen peroxide*** (a TLDR for people who just need to know how to get started) Week 1: 1mL/8g, 3x per day Week 2: 1mL/5g, 3x per day Week 3: 1mL/5g, 3x per day, plus overnight dosing. Continue the week 3 dosing regimen for a...

humble.fish

Thanks, I'll look into this.

 

[ThePlummer]

Yes, a few questions.
Wouldn't the ammonia build up over three days while using Ammoloc? Can you use the API ammonia test?
Wouldn't the fish be less stressed if sterile 10 gallon tanks were used instead of the 5 gallon buckets?
Wouldn't an observation period after the TTM be necessary?
Any advice for introducing the new fish into the DT?

I used to use the ammonia sensors.... But over time, I've found out that a single dose of ammoloc is sufficient for a medium sized fish. If the fish is small, I only use 2-3 gallons of water. If the fish is bigger, I fill the bucket full of SW.
Like I said, IMO the white bucket is actually less stressful, because it's like a deprivation chamber. There's nothing for the fish to see, so it's stress is less. The only stress, is when you move the fish from one bucket to another, then it's right back in a white bucket, what it's use to seeing.
You could do a observation period, And I have, but I've found it to be unnecessary.
When introducing the new fish to the DT, I do use a acclimation box for a few days, but only if I have a aggressive fish that I believe would attack the new tank mate.

 

[ThePlummer]

How do you do TTM without hurting or stressing the fish out? newb here

Sorry for the late response, I just saw this.

I use white 5 gallon buckets for the QT transfers. They act like deprivation chambers. And since I'm only using white buckets, when I transfer the fish from one bucket to another, there is very little prolonged stress induced.

There is no possible way for the fish to see outside the bucket, so very little change in environment for them to have ongoing stressors.

However, this is key. You have to use wave pumps in the bottom of the bucket, pointing upward, to ensure adequate oxygen transfer, because the surface area at the top of the water isn't large enough to do oxygen transfer naturally.