Unexplainable bat ray death.. twice..

[eelman]

Alright, if someone could chime in I’d absolutely appreciate it because I’m at a loss for words and extremely mad at myself

I have pool pond, in my warehouse where I’ve had the blessing to be able to house sharks, rays, eels, groupers and a variety of other fish together. The current dimensions are 7’ by 11’ by 3’ this was just a temporary holding solution until I made my permanent move to south Florida. Most of these fish I had since pups that outgrew my 220 system and I had to give them a better living condition until i get a custom made pond. Have actually come to enjoy the natural look down pond more than aquariums for the natural feel of being a kid seeing them the way I did in the wild.

Anyway, I’ve done an immense amount of research and don’t claim to be a pro or know as much as most but when it comes to these animals, I really try my best to invite them into a warm welcoming home with the right conditions and research behind it and so far have had a very successful run for the last two years up until these last two months with one specific animal the bat ray..

I had ordered and placed one on a waitlist and a few months later finally a male pup showed up on the order along with five new fish

The day prior for preparation I did a 600 gallon water change checked all water parameters everything to “me” at least checked out. I’ll list them below.

Salinity 1.023
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Temperature 73.9
Ph 8.4
Nitrate 8ppm

Had a secondary shop do a follow test, similar results

The place they were coming from sat at around 30 ppm nitrate.

So here we are..
Everything comes in the following morning, overnight shipped* I do a bag float for 30 mins, slow drip acclimation and place them in the pond, every other fish/ shark / ray does well, perfect actually then the bat ray… he enters the pond, swims around for 20 minutes, lays there, swims around for another minute and then randomly starts jolting back and fourth, then just calmly lays at the bottom curls his fins and dies within seconds… absolutely gutted me, he didn’t last half an hour..

I dont know if I was responsible. He’s the only fish that didn’t make it for me up until this point. I’m still mad at myself for it.

Two months later I had the opportunity to acquire another one, thinking the last one was a freak accident of stress from traveling or maybe born with a parasite/disease.. I really wanted to try again, it’s my dream aquatic animal.. The company I purchased from also said they’ve never seen an incident like that happen before.. So it gave me some of the hope I needed.

This time just to be sure, I upgraded my pump, doubled my biological filtration system, upgraded my skimmer, added heavy aeration kits, placed an AC unit inside the warehouse, even did an 800 gallon water change a few days prior and then tested my water

As follows

Salinity 1.023
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Temperature 72.1
Ph 8.4
Nitrate 5ppm

Here we go…

The next day the bat ray shows up, shipment was delayed a few hours, he’s still alive, the other fish with him are still alive…

This time I was told instead of a slow acclimation to just float him and then drop him, don’t drip acclimate as the ammonia levels could be super toxic in the bags with big animals like rays and sharks.

I bag float him for 30 minutes, take him out and drop him right in, this one looks much better, he wasn’t disoriented, wasn’t swimming oddly, didn’t look stressed in the lightest, I sit in there with him for 3 hours, all is good, feels like I’m out of the woods, go grab some food, come back to check on him, he’s just laying at the bottom with the sharks, looks great, then randomly jolts to the top of the water, starting doing the back and fourth motion, goes back to the bottom curls his fins and f***** dies..

I am so unbelievably mad and frustrated with myself. I feel responsible, I don’t know what I did wrong or where it went wrong..

I spent so many days preparing for this and it happened to both of them.. No other fish, nothing appears sick or shown any issues, other rays came from the same place, shipped the same way… only fish I’ve lost like this as I try to be so careful, I spent the last month replaying what I did wrong just for it to happen again, I’m at a loss for words.. I don’t get it..

Thanks for your time everyone

 

[vetteguy53081]

Alright, if someone could chime in I’d absolutely appreciate it because I’m at a loss for words and extremely mad at myself

I have pool pond, in my warehouse where I’ve had the blessing to be able to house sharks, rays, eels, groupers and a variety of other fish together. The current dimensions are 7’ by 11’ by 3’ this was just a temporary holding solution until I made my permanent move to south Florida. Most of these fish I had since pups that outgrew my 220 system and I had to give them a better living condition until i get a custom made pond. Have actually come to enjoy the natural look down pond more than aquariums for the natural feel of being a kid seeing them the way I did in the wild.

Anyway, I’ve done an immense amount of research and don’t claim to be a pro or know as much as most but when it comes to these animals, I really try my best to invite them into a warm welcoming home with the right conditions and research behind it and so far have had a very successful run for the last two years up until these last two months with one specific animal the bat ray..

I had ordered and placed one on a waitlist and a few months later finally a male pup showed up on the order along with five new fish

The day prior for preparation I did a 600 gallon water change checked all water parameters everything to “me” at least checked out. I’ll list them below.

Salinity 1.023
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Temperature 73.9
Ph 8.4
Nitrate 8ppm

Had a secondary shop do a follow test, similar results

The place they were coming from sat at around 30 ppm nitrate.

So here we are..
Everything comes in the following morning, overnight shipped* I do a bag float for 30 mins, slow drip acclimation and place them in the pond, every other fish/ shark / ray does well, perfect actually then the bat ray… he enters the pond, swims around for 20 minutes, lays there, swims around for another minute and then randomly starts jolting back and fourth, then just calmly lays at the bottom curls his fins and dies within seconds… absolutely gutted me, he didn’t last half an hour..

I dont know if I was responsible. He’s the only fish that didn’t make it for me up until this point. I’m still mad at myself for it.

Two months later I had the opportunity to acquire another one, thinking the last one was a freak accident of stress from traveling or maybe born with a parasite/disease.. I really wanted to try again, it’s my dream aquatic animal.. The company I purchased from also said they’ve never seen an incident like that happen before.. So it gave me some of the hope I needed.

This time just to be sure, I upgraded my pump, doubled my biological filtration system, upgraded my skimmer, added heavy aeration kits, placed an AC unit inside the warehouse, even did an 800 gallon water change a few days prior and then tested my water

As follows

Salinity 1.023
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Temperature 72.1
Ph 8.4
Nitrate 5ppm

Here we go…

The next day the bat ray shows up, shipment was delayed a few hours, he’s still alive, the other fish with him are still alive…

This time I was told instead of a slow acclimation to just float him and then drop him, don’t drip acclimate as the ammonia levels could be super toxic in the bags with big animals like rays and sharks.

I bag float him for 30 minutes, take him out and drop him right in, this one looks much better, he wasn’t disoriented, wasn’t swimming oddly, didn’t look stressed in the lightest, I sit in there with him for 3 hours, all is good, feels like I’m out of the woods, go grab some food, come back to check on him, he’s just laying at the bottom with the sharks, looks great, then randomly jolts to the top of the water, starting doing the back and fourth motion, goes back to the bottom curls his fins and f***** dies..

I am so unbelievably mad and frustrated with myself. I feel responsible, I don’t know what I did wrong or where it went wrong..

I spent so many days preparing for this and it happened to both of them.. No other fish, nothing appears sick or shown any issues, other rays came from the same place, shipped the same way… only fish I’ve lost like this as I try to be so careful, I spent the last month replaying what I did wrong just for it to happen again, I’m at a loss for words.. I don’t get it..

Thanks for your time everyone

These are considered very difficult in captivity and how are you testing water? You can disregard nitrites which are Freshwater specific. I also wonder if something in the pool is leaching into water but most important is, nitrate levels cannot be elevated for this specimen and ph at 8.1 is critical

 

[Spartan76]

Sorry to hear about your losses. I have experience just with cat sharks that are relatively hardier, if I had to guess it’s an acclimation issue. I think a very, very gradual drip over several hours with strong aeration might be a solution- but it’s a guess. Try asking one of the public aquariums that have these.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Alright, if someone could chime in I’d absolutely appreciate it because I’m at a loss for words and extremely mad at myself

I have pool pond, in my warehouse where I’ve had the blessing to be able to house sharks, rays, eels, groupers and a variety of other fish together. The current dimensions are 7’ by 11’ by 3’ this was just a temporary holding solution until I made my permanent move to south Florida. Most of these fish I had since pups that outgrew my 220 system and I had to give them a better living condition until i get a custom made pond. Have actually come to enjoy the natural look down pond more than aquariums for the natural feel of being a kid seeing them the way I did in the wild.

Anyway, I’ve done an immense amount of research and don’t claim to be a pro or know as much as most but when it comes to these animals, I really try my best to invite them into a warm welcoming home with the right conditions and research behind it and so far have had a very successful run for the last two years up until these last two months with one specific animal the bat ray..

I had ordered and placed one on a waitlist and a few months later finally a male pup showed up on the order along with five new fish

The day prior for preparation I did a 600 gallon water change checked all water parameters everything to “me” at least checked out. I’ll list them below.

Salinity 1.023
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Temperature 73.9
Ph 8.4
Nitrate 8ppm

Had a secondary shop do a follow test, similar results

The place they were coming from sat at around 30 ppm nitrate.

So here we are..
Everything comes in the following morning, overnight shipped* I do a bag float for 30 mins, slow drip acclimation and place them in the pond, every other fish/ shark / ray does well, perfect actually then the bat ray… he enters the pond, swims around for 20 minutes, lays there, swims around for another minute and then randomly starts jolting back and fourth, then just calmly lays at the bottom curls his fins and dies within seconds… absolutely gutted me, he didn’t last half an hour..

I dont know if I was responsible. He’s the only fish that didn’t make it for me up until this point. I’m still mad at myself for it.

Two months later I had the opportunity to acquire another one, thinking the last one was a freak accident of stress from traveling or maybe born with a parasite/disease.. I really wanted to try again, it’s my dream aquatic animal.. The company I purchased from also said they’ve never seen an incident like that happen before.. So it gave me some of the hope I needed.

This time just to be sure, I upgraded my pump, doubled my biological filtration system, upgraded my skimmer, added heavy aeration kits, placed an AC unit inside the warehouse, even did an 800 gallon water change a few days prior and then tested my water

As follows

Salinity 1.023
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Temperature 72.1
Ph 8.4
Nitrate 5ppm

Here we go…

The next day the bat ray shows up, shipment was delayed a few hours, he’s still alive, the other fish with him are still alive…

This time I was told instead of a slow acclimation to just float him and then drop him, don’t drip acclimate as the ammonia levels could be super toxic in the bags with big animals like rays and sharks.

I bag float him for 30 minutes, take him out and drop him right in, this one looks much better, he wasn’t disoriented, wasn’t swimming oddly, didn’t look stressed in the lightest, I sit in there with him for 3 hours, all is good, feels like I’m out of the woods, go grab some food, come back to check on him, he’s just laying at the bottom with the sharks, looks great, then randomly jolts to the top of the water, starting doing the back and fourth motion, goes back to the bottom curls his fins and f***** dies..

I am so unbelievably mad and frustrated with myself. I feel responsible, I don’t know what I did wrong or where it went wrong..

I spent so many days preparing for this and it happened to both of them.. No other fish, nothing appears sick or shown any issues, other rays came from the same place, shipped the same way… only fish I’ve lost like this as I try to be so careful, I spent the last month replaying what I did wrong just for it to happen again, I’m at a loss for words.. I don’t get it..

Thanks for your time everyone

I've kept perhaps half a dozen of these over the years, but none since 2012. I've had issues with small ones "failing to thrive", after a few weeks, but not sudden death like this.

I always kept them at 67 to 68 F., but your temperature, while not ideal, would not cause acute death.
I also always used air cargo for shipping, not an overnight service.

Do you know the water temperature and salinity of the bags upon arrival?

 

[eelman]

These are considered very difficult in captivity and how are you testing water? You can disregard nitrites which are Freshwater specific. I also wonder if something in the pool is leaching into water but most important is, nitrate levels cannot be elevated for this specimen and ph at 8.1 is critical

that’s the issues, when researching evertythings tells me something different and not many people have them to go off of. I was told many aquariums have bat/cows at over 100 nitrates with no issues, 5 is awfully low.

 

[eelman]

I've kept perhaps half a dozen of these over the years, but none since 2012. I've had issues with small ones "failing to thrive", after a few weeks, but not sudden death like this.

I always kept them at 67 to 68 F., but your temperature, while not ideal, would not cause acute death.
I also always used air cargo for shipping, not an overnight service.

Do you know the water temperature and salinity of the bags upon arrival?

I checked temp yes, but not salinity. Temp was around 75 in bags. I think 77 first time it was 94 outside

I did use cargo, travel time is usually 17 hours best case.

Temperature, yes, this was my biggest concern with longterm, I have read they they can handle temps comfortable at 75 and lower and then I read they live in tropical climates as well and can handle up to 80, I didn’t know but thought they were similar to the horn sharks that could handle warmer temps if exposed?

 

[eelman]

Sorry to hear about your losses. I have experience just with cat sharks that are relatively hardier, if I had to guess it’s an acclimation issue. I think a very, very gradual drip over several hours with strong aeration might be a solution- but it’s a guess. Try asking one of the public aquariums that have these.

One shop that specializes in rays told me the flop
Method was all they did with the bats, I tried both ways I was recommended and the timing of half an hour and 5 hours is what gets me, especially with no other fish having any issues at all.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I checked temp yes, but not salinity. Temp was around 75 in bags. I think 77 first time it was 94 outside

I did use cargo, travel time is usually 17 hours best case.

Temperature, yes, this was my biggest concern with longterm, I have read they they can handle temps comfortable at 75 and lower and then I read they live in tropical climates as well and can handle up to 80, I didn’t know but thought they were similar to the horn sharks that could handle warmer temps if exposed?

One of my concerns is a rise in salinity from the shipping water to your tank. Can you ask the shipper what they used?

 

[eelman]

Remember the first time was a slow drip and I still had issues and both times multiple other fish and rays have been okay, just the bat ray both times

From your experience, can a bat ray handle a year from temp of 75 and under? Have you ever had anything like this happen with one animal, 2 separates times, 2 separate conditions?

I will ask, what would be lethal?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Remember the first time was a slow drip and I still had issues and both times multiple other fish and rays have been okay, just the bat ray both times

From your experience, can a bat ray handle a year from temp of 75 and under? Have you ever had anything like this happen with one animal, 2 separates times, 2 separate conditions?

I will ask, what would be lethal?

I see acclimation as a potential cause in BOTH cases:

Drip acclimation is problematic due to nitrogenous waste build-up and aeration issues. Also, people generally "under-drip" - it takes a pretty good flow to get the salinity equilibrated properly.

Dumping works in some cases, but NOT if there is a salinity rise from the shipping bag to the tank of more than about .003 specific gravity units.

I've never kept bat rays that warm, but I do know that people have kept them at that temperature for long term. Like I said, it won't kill them outright, but they do tend to have trouble maintaining body mass at higher temperatures due to higher metabolism.

 

[eelman]

I see acclimation as a potential cause in BOTH cases:

Drip acclimation is problematic due to nitrogenous waste build-up and aeration issues. Also, people generally "under-drip" - it takes a pretty good flow to get the salinity equilibrated properly.

Dumping works in some cases, but NOT if there is a salinity rise from the shipping bag to the tank of more than about .003 specific gravity units.

I've never kept bat rays that warm, but I do know that people have kept them at that temperature for long term. Like I said, it won't kill them outright, but they do tend to have trouble maintaining body mass at higher

So are you saying this with all animals or is this specifically a bat ray issue? From what I’m reading these guys are fairly tolerable to a magnitude of salinity, not that I’m challenging what your saying, I’m just really trying to rule everything out.

I do know what my salinity was and apparently no one else is having this issue and are getting them shipped from the exact location doing similar acclimation to what I was told, theoretically if I’m the outlier then it does seem to fall on me, but I just don’t understand how. Let’s say the salinity is in fact identical or to an extent that is not the causation, what would be another potential candidate? All other fish shipped came from the same water, the same holding tank, they had no issues.

I’ve ordered a lot of fish here, the bat ray both times under 2 different conditions was the only fish that’s ever done this.

What would you do differently if you were me and if it happened again, even with the differences what then?

Is it even worth me getting them with a year round temp like that? If I can keep feeding and size up is that my only concern with a higher temp? Do any public large systems keep them In warmer temps? I do not want to put the animal under stress, even as a hypothetical..

 

[KrisReef]

So are you saying this with all animals or is this specifically a bat ray issue? From what I’m reading these guys are fairly tolerable to a magnitude of salinity, not that I’m challenging what your saying, I’m just really trying to rule everything out.

I do know what my salinity was and apparently no one else is having this issue and are getting them shipped from the exact location doing similar acclimation to what I was told, theoretically if I’m the outlier then it does seem to fall on me, but I just don’t understand how. Let’s say the salinity is in fact identical or to an extent that is not the causation, what would be another potential candidate? All other fish shipped came from the same water, the same holding tank, they had no issues.

I’ve ordered a lot of fish here, the bat ray both times under 2 different conditions was the only fish that’s ever done this.

What would you do differently if you were me and if it happened again, even with the differences what then?

Is it even worth me getting them with a year round temp like that? If I can keep feeding and size up is that my only concern with a higher temp? Do any public large systems keep them In warmer temps? I do not want to put the animal under stress, even as a hypothetical..

Hmm.
Maybe double check your salinity? I have access to natural sea water and I collect samples and use NSW to check/compare with my tank to ensure it hasn't drifted to far out over time, because that drift has been a challenge here at home, even with an ATO and reliable methods of salinity testing.

Sorry about these deaths. very sad!

 

[eelman]

So are you saying this with all animals or is this specifically a bat ray issue? From what I’m reading these guys are fairly tolerable to a magnitude of salinity, not that I’m challenging what your saying, I’m just really trying to rule everything out.

I do know what my salinity was and apparently no one else is having this issue and are getting them shipped from the exact location doing similar acclimation to what I was told, theoretically if I’m the outlier then it does seem to fall on me, but I just don’t understand how. Let’s say the salinity is in fact identical or to an extent that is not the causation, what would be another potential candidate? All other fish shipped came from the same water, the same holding tank, they had no issues.

I’ve ordered a lot of fish here, the bat ray both times under 2 different conditions was the only fish that’s ever done this.

What would you do differently if you were me and if it happened again, even with the differences what then?

Is it even worth me getting them with a year round temp like that? If I can keep feeding and size up is that my only concern with a higher temp? Do any public large systems keep them In warmer temps? I do not want to put the animal under stress, even as a hypothetical..

Even then, why did the second one last around 5 hours as opposed to the other, seem fine and then it wasn’t? The initial one was just all bad from the beginning.. why aren’t the other rays having the same problem?

 

[eelman]

Hmm.
Maybe double check your salinity? I have access to natural sea water and I collect samples and use NSW to check/compare with my tank to ensure it hasn't drifted to far out over time, because that drift has been a challenge here at home, even with an ATO and reliable methods of salinity testing.

Sorry about these deaths. very sad!

Yes even then, my concern is there are other rays, sharks, fish that are completely fine during transport from identical conditions, that’s what makes it incredibly frustrating

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

So are you saying this with all animals or is this specifically a bat ray issue? From what I’m reading these guys are fairly tolerable to a magnitude of salinity, not that I’m challenging what your saying, I’m just really trying to rule everything out.

I do know what my salinity was and apparently no one else is having this issue and are getting them shipped from the exact location doing similar acclimation to what I was told, theoretically if I’m the outlier then it does seem to fall on me, but I just don’t understand how. Let’s say the salinity is in fact identical or to an extent that is not the causation, what would be another potential candidate? All other fish shipped came from the same water, the same holding tank, they had no issues.

I’ve ordered a lot of fish here, the bat ray both times under 2 different conditions was the only fish that’s ever done this.

What would you do differently if you were me and if it happened again, even with the differences what then?

Is it even worth me getting them with a year round temp like that? If I can keep feeding and size up is that my only concern with a higher temp? Do any public large systems keep them In warmer temps? I do not want to put the animal under stress, even as a hypothetical..

Bat rays are relatively adaptive to different salinities, but the key word is adaptive. Fish have a difficult time handling rapid rises in salinity (less than a day per .006 SG units).

Ruling out a salinity rise, then it comes down to marginalized, stressed fish that just couldn’t handle the shipping stress.

I retired after 40 years in public aquariums, I always kept this species in cool temperate systems. I don’t know what other aquariums do - you could ask the Aquarium of the Pacific in Long Beach. I remember they were keeping cherry anthias at 78 while I had always thought they needed 68. The Birch aquarium at Scripps uses open water systems, so their water temperature fluctuates annually. You could also try inferring their natural range, but that can be tricky as the given range doesn’t always include depth, and they could be living in Mexico in deeper water for example.

 

[eelman]

Bat rays are relatively adaptive to different salinities, but the key word is adaptive. Fish have a difficult time handling rapid rises in salinity (less than a day per .006 SG units).

Ruling out a salinity rise, then it comes down to marginalized, stressed fish that just couldn’t handle the shipping stress.

I retired after 40 years in public aquariums, I always kept this species in cool temperate systems. I don’t know what other aquariums do - you could ask the Aquarium of the Pacific in Long Beach. I remember they were keeping cherry anthias at 78 while I had always thought they needed 68. The Birch aquarium at Scripps uses open water systems, so their water temperature fluctuates annually. You could also try inferring their natural range, but that can be tricky as the given range doesn’t always include depth, and they could be living in Mexico in deeper water for example.

From your experience are the bat rays, more sensitive than other ways during transit? On top of that, if you would’ve tried this again, what would you do differently?

Yeah I’ve tried doing an immense amount of research on their temperate when it comes to temperature and that’s when I came to the conclusion that they were most likely similar to the horn shark and I figured with a lot of the touch ponds at aquariums the temperature was probably hard to manage during the summertime, I see so many different things on their temperature as well, obviously the most common I see is closer to 68 but then I see 72 and then I see as long as it’s not over 75 they can tolerate it for long periods of time and then I see it can go all the way up to 82 in the tropical ranges so I just don’t know where the temperature really lands on these guys long-term.

Just like the horn shark everybody will tell you that they’re a cold water species yet I see them thriving in warm water climates even mine has grown immensely, large and done really well for nearly 3 years and sub, tropical, tropical temps.

The conclusion of this is I really want one and I really wanna make it work, but I don’t want to stress the animal out. I want the animal to live a good life and I just want to do what’s best for this animal so if I can have one in those lines, then I’m perfectly happy trying it again. I just don’t know how to go about it.

Unless this particular rate is super delicate, I don’t know why every other stingray and shark I’m getting is thriving and doing super well, I mean what would cause an animal to just randomly die five hours after acclimation?

Thanks again for your time

 

[Gone Reefin’]

Hey Eelman. Sorry to hear all this. Reading through this, Jay is giving you a possible solution to both sudden deaths. The first may have been ammonia shock due to drip acclimation. The second, salinity shock due to a possible quick rise from dump method. I don’t think we can explain why others did so well, perhaps not as sensitive. Wish you luck with your pond.

 

[eelman]

Hey Eelman. Sorry to hear all this. Reading through this, Jay is giving you a possible solution to both sudden deaths. The first may have been ammonia shock due to drip acclimation. The second, salinity shock due to a possible quick rise from dump method. I don’t think we can explain why others did so well, perhaps not as sensitive. Wish you luck with your pond.

Yes, now looking from the outside in, I’m trying to re evaluate the situation in order to try my best to correct it.

The dilemma here, is if I do a slow drip we have ammonia… if I do a fast drop we have a potential shock factor. So what’s is the other option here, even then, what happens if it dies again? Im being told by others who specialize in rays that neither of these methods were inherently incorrect and that’s how they’ve had success with introducing theirs,

I trust that jays judgment on this is far stronger than mine, I just don’t know how to manage this going forward, if Parameters “checked out” at all times and on top of that I have had no other mortality in this pond with other sensitive species and others are having success with these introduction methods, then what now?

Apparently these guys are hardier than some of the other rays I’ve introduced, why both times only the bat ray? Why has it only been the bat ray? Yes we can argue sensitivity, but others are getting theirs with no issue, so than it points back to me, but on a test, the only difference in parameters were nitrates, them being higher than mine. Why did one last under half and hour and the other 5 hours?..

I’m just frustrated about it.

 

[Gone Reefin’]

Here is one possible solution to cover both bases. First, test the bag water salinity to see what you are working with. If it matches yours, dump and go. If low, perform a 50-75% bag water change that matches (or is slightly above) bag salinity. Then proceed with drip acclimation. Just my thought, perhaps Jay or others will chime in.