Upgrading Cycle Question

[CMarieDennison]

Good afternoon,
I feel like I should be considered a "new" reefer- I have been studying and reading and watching videos for years but only recently set up my first tank. It was a 20-gallon Tideline AIO. It has been running since May of this year (2022). I have an emerald crab, two peppermint shrimp, two trochus snails, two nessarius snails (I think, I almost never see them lol) and two clownfish. Everything's fine, except...I want more I plan on using this 20 -gallon as my quarantine tank from now on.
So, I am upgrading to a 125-gallon, 4-foot tank. Got it installed, plumbed the sump, filled with RODI water. I used the RedSea Reef Mature kit last time and I didn't really like it, so I'm trying Dr. Tim's One and Only this go around. One if his videos said to keep the salinity lower and the temp higher so that the bacteria will colonize quicker, so salinity is only at like 18ppm and sitting around 80 degrees. I have a question, and I'm sorry if this is kind of dumb lol:

If I move half of the rock from the 20-gallon into the 125, will that help the cycle, or will it just overload the bacteria on the rock? I don't want to give them too much to do. I know that if there is too much nitrite released by the ammonia oxidizing bacteria, the nitrifying bacteria can be killed and stall the cycle, so I guess I'm just worried about overdoing by sticking this puny rock into such a large tank.

 

[shakacuz]

welcome aboard the r2r board!

to answer your question, yes. adding rock or sand from an already established thank will aid and even speed up the cycling process. however i would still test normally to ensure a proper cycle!

 

[Rick's Reviews]

Good afternoon,
I feel like I should be considered a "new" reefer- I have been studying and reading and watching videos for years but only recently set up my first tank. It was a 20-gallon Tideline AIO. It has been running since May of this year (2022). I have an emerald crab, two peppermint shrimp, two trochus snails, two nessarius snails (I think, I almost never see them lol) and two clownfish. Everything's fine, except...I want more I plan on using this 20 -gallon as my quarantine tank from now on.
So, I am upgrading to a 125-gallon, 4-foot tank. Got it installed, plumbed the sump, filled with RODI water. I used the RedSea Reef Mature kit last time and I didn't really like it, so I'm trying Dr. Tim's One and Only this go around. One if his videos said to keep the salinity lower and the temp higher so that the bacteria will colonize quicker, so salinity is only at like 18ppm and sitting around 80 degrees. I have a question, and I'm sorry if this is kind of dumb lol:

If I move half of the rock from the 20-gallon into the 125, will that help the cycle, or will it just overload the bacteria on the rock? I don't want to give them too much to do. I know that if there is too much nitrite released by the ammonia oxidizing bacteria, the nitrifying bacteria can be killed and stall the cycle, so I guess I'm just worried about overdoing by sticking this puny rock into such a large tank.

Yes I would keep both aquriam's separate, no cross contamination, cycle the aquarium as intended as 'new' this also helps eliminate any problems during cycle

 

[Rmckoy]

As mentioned above I would cycle the new tank as new . Adding rocks from a established system will not be a bad idea but I don’t think a 1 or 2 lb rock in 125 gallons of water will make much difference in addition to the one and only .

I’m confused when you say 18ppm for salinity .
typically salinity is measured in ppt or sg
Reef salinity is around 35ppt or 1.026 sg
18 seams very low( below hypo salinity used for quarantine

maybe someone else can correct me ?

 

[btmedic04]

Hello and welcome! jumping from a 20 to a 125 is a very nice upgrade! My advice would be to match salinity and temp in your 125 to your 20, add your new rock and new sand, and and either dr. tims one and only or fritz turbo start 900 and let that settle out of the water column. Once the bacteria has settled, Id next add your current rock from your 20 to your 125. If you do it this way, you'll be able to move your current livestock from your 20 to your 125 as the biofilter needed to support your current critters is already established on the rock in that system and you'll have seeded your new rock and sand with the dr. tims or fritz turbo start. If you dont have any corals, id run with the lights off to give your new rocks time to gain a biofilm to help fight off nuisance algaes that come. It wont prevent it all, but the more stuff you have competing for the new surface area, the better. after a few weeks of that, you can turn your lights back on and then slowly start to increase your clean up crew as needed. by this time, any new fish you may have quarantined can go in. make sure that you increase livestock slowly however so you dont overload your biofilter.

This worked well for me when I merged a nuvo 10 and nuvo 20 into a 40b with about 20lbs of new rock, 40lbs of new sand with about 20lbs of rock from my other tanks. This included corals and what not on the rocks along with the fish and inverts from both systems, so I had to run my lights from day 1 of the move, but the expected algae outbreak wasnt as bad as expected it to be. I didnt have a single loss, even with the few sps frags I had already placed on the rocks in my nuvo 20.

Hope this helps, and id encourage you to start a build thread! we love to follow along around here

 

[52728299]

As mentioned above I would cycle the new tank as new . Adding rocks from a established system will not be a bad idea but I don’t think a 1 or 2 lb rock in 125 gallons of water will make much difference in addition to the one and only .

I’m confused when you say 18ppm for salinity .
typically salinity is measured in ppt or sg
Reef salinity is around 35ppt or 1.026 sg
18 seams very low( below hypo salinity used for quarantine

maybe someone else can correct me ?

Pretty sure they meant 18ppt and was doing so because Dr tims says it helps speed up cycle?

If it were me I'd 100% use my current rock. You may want to look into live ocean rock to add as well, sold online.. Dry rock is terrible to cycle ime. Nice upgrade, I started my tank around the same time and would love a tank that size.

 

[Rmckoy]

Pretty sure they meant 18ppt and was doing so because Dr tims says it helps speed up cycle?

If it were me I'd 100% use my current rock. You may want to look into live ocean rock to add as well, sold online.. Dry rock is terrible to cycle ime. Nice upgrade, I started my tank around the same time and would love a tank that size.

18ppt is 1.0135 sg

that seams extremely low
Curious how that low salinity colonized the same saltwater nitrifying bacteria .

 

[CMarieDennison]

welcome aboard the r2r board!

to answer your question, yes. adding rock or sand from an already established thank will aid and even speed up the cycling process. however i would still test normally to ensure a proper cycle!

Thank you!

 

[CMarieDennison]

As mentioned above I would cycle the new tank as new . Adding rocks from a established system will not be a bad idea but I don’t think a 1 or 2 lb rock in 125 gallons of water will make much difference in addition to the one and only .

I’m confused when you say 18ppm for salinity .
typically salinity is measured in ppt or sg
Reef salinity is around 35ppt or 1.026 sg
18 seams very low( below hypo salinity used for quarantine

maybe someone else can correct me ?

I said ppm because my career bled over into my hobby; I meant ppt. And I'm sitting around 18 ppt because Dr. Tim Hovanec said to lol. BRS and MASNA held a seminar with Dr. Tim where he explained everything in depth. I'll link the video if you're interested.

14:40

 

[CMarieDennison]

Hello and welcome! jumping from a 20 to a 125 is a very nice upgrade! My advice would be to match salinity and temp in your 125 to your 20, add your new rock and new sand, and and either dr. tims one and only or fritz turbo start 900 and let that settle out of the water column. Once the bacteria has settled, Id next add your current rock from your 20 to your 125. If you do it this way, you'll be able to move your current livestock from your 20 to your 125 as the biofilter needed to support your current critters is already established on the rock in that system and you'll have seeded your new rock and sand with the dr. tims or fritz turbo start. If you dont have any corals, id run with the lights off to give your new rocks time to gain a biofilm to help fight off nuisance algaes that come. It wont prevent it all, but the more stuff you have competing for the new surface area, the better. after a few weeks of that, you can turn your lights back on and then slowly start to increase your clean up crew as needed. by this time, any new fish you may have quarantined can go in. make sure that you increase livestock slowly however so you dont overload your biofilter.

This worked well for me when I merged a nuvo 10 and nuvo 20 into a 40b with about 20lbs of new rock, 40lbs of new sand with about 20lbs of rock from my other tanks. This included corals and what not on the rocks along with the fish and inverts from both systems, so I had to run my lights from day 1 of the move, but the expected algae outbreak wasnt as bad as expected it to be. I didnt have a single loss, even with the few sps frags I had already placed on the rocks in my nuvo 20.

Hope this helps, and id encourage you to start a build thread! we love to follow along around here

I know, I'm very excited. 20 was just not enough for anything!

You think I could put my livestock in the new tank now? I do try to fishless cycle so I don't hurt anything.

I do not have corals yet, I wanted to get really familiar with the chemistry and what not before I tried to keep corals alive I am intimidated.

How do I start a build thread? I wouldn't mind having people to talk to about it, I'm sure my husband is tired of hearing me go on about this lol

 

[CMarieDennison]

Pretty sure they meant 18ppt and was doing so because Dr tims says it helps speed up cycle?

If it were me I'd 100% use my current rock. You may want to look into live ocean rock to add as well, sold online.. Dry rock is terrible to cycle ime. Nice upgrade, I started my tank around the same time and would love a tank that size.

You should! I'm terribly excited. I don't mind a longer cycle time, live rock is expensive

 

[Rmckoy]

I know, I'm very excited. 20 was just not enough for anything!

You think I could put my livestock in the new tank now? I do try to fishless cycle so I don't hurt anything.

I do not have corals yet, I wanted to get really familiar with the chemistry and what not before I tried to keep corals alive I am intimidated.

How do I start a build thread? I wouldn't mind having people to talk to about it, I'm sure my husband is tired of hearing me go on about this lol

This hobby can be very intimidating and stressful .
but take one step at a time …..

Go slow and let it mature
There is a way to add a new post as a build thread . The admins here will help with Linking it to your name

 

[CMarieDennison]

This hobby can be very intimidating and stressful .
but take one step at a time …..

Go slow and let it mature
There is a way to add a new post as a build thread . The admins here will help with Linking it to your name

I think I figured out how to make a build thread. I'll add pictures too

 

[btmedic04]

I know, I'm very excited. 20 was just not enough for anything!

You think I could put my livestock in the new tank now? I do try to fishless cycle so I don't hurt anything.

I do not have corals yet, I wanted to get really familiar with the chemistry and what not before I tried to keep corals alive I am intimidated.

How do I start a build thread? I wouldn't mind having people to talk to about it, I'm sure my husband is tired of hearing me go on about this lol

Sorry, I was stuck at work and am only just now able to respond. If you move over your live rock from your 20 gallon system and put it in your 125 gallon, you will be able to move the livestock you have over to the 120 as the rocks from the 20 already support the life in that tank. one very important thing to keep in mind if moving your fish and inverts from the 20 to the 125 is do not dose ammonium chloride. that will kill the inverts and potentially the clownfish as well. Just feed them like you would normally do and that will provide enough food for the bottled bacteria to get it going on the rest of the new rock. If you already have added ammonium chloride to the new tank, then wait for your ammonia readings to hit 0 before moving the live rocks, fish and inverts from your 20 gallon tank.

Corals can be intimidating, and it sounds like you are being very responsible towards the health and well-being of everything that goes in your system. When youre ready for corals, theres several different sub forums that can answer your questions regarding dipping, fragging, what kinds of corals should you start with etc. When you decide that youre ready, for a beginner, id recommend starting with a couple of soft corals as they are very forgiving generally speaking. Once youve had some success and gain confidence, then you can start looking at LPS or even SPS. like all things in this hobby though, nothing good happens fast so take your time!

Im glad you figured out the build thread, looking forward to seeing your system grow!

 

[CMarieDennison]

Sorry, I was stuck at work and am only just now able to respond. If you move over your live rock from your 20 gallon system and put it in your 125 gallon, you will be able to move the livestock you have over to the 120 as the rocks from the 20 already support the life in that tank. one very important thing to keep in mind if moving your fish and inverts from the 20 to the 125 is do not dose ammonium chloride. that will kill the inverts and potentially the clownfish as well. Just feed them like you would normally do and that will provide enough food for the bottled bacteria to get it going on the rest of the new rock.

Corals can be intimidating, and it sounds like you are being very responsible towards the health and well-being of everything that goes in your system. When youre ready for corals, theres several different sub forums that can answer your questions regarding dipping, fragging, what kinds of corals should you start with etc. When you decide that youre ready, for a beginner, id recommend starting with a couple of soft corals as they are very forgiving generally speaking. Once youve had some success and gain confidence, then you can start looking at LPS or even SPS. like all things in this hobby though, nothing good happens fast so take your time!

Im glad you figured out the build thread, looking forward to seeing your system grow!

Aw man, the Dr. Tims method that I used has me dose ammonia chloride

Yes, patience is key! I've watched so many videos and the main common phrase is "have patience" lol

 

[btmedic04]

Aw man, the Dr. Tims method that I used has me dose ammonia chloride

Yes, patience is key! I've watched so many videos and the main common phrase is "have patience" lol

thats no worries! id just wait it out for the bacteria to process the ammonia chloride into nitrites and then nitrates, then Id move all of the rocks and critters from the 20 to the 125

Im in the middle of cycling my 40b after restarting it due to having to tear it down and store it when they did renovations on my apartment. The ammonia has been processed, but now im waiting for the nitrites to be processed. Even after being in the hobby for 9 years, I still have to remind myself to be patient lol

 

[brandon429]

Marie

since cycling articles (and videos) don't delineate the various types, there are four main ways we cycle and each is a different mode, it's easy to confuse what we do for dry rock cycling (what you're doing with dr tims bottle bac + ammonia) and it seem strange compared to what bt wrote in post #14

your rocks aren't dry rocks, they don't need bacteria built up.

moving rocks among tanks never kills bacteria, it's harmless to them.

btmedic is describing a live rock transfer cycle

bottle bac sellers don't tell us of that type; because it needs no bac purchased nor ammonia dosed-they can't make money extra if folks know when their product isn't needed. exactly what he wrote in post #14 is your entire matter in one answer, you move the rocks and the cycle skips and no testing is required, it can't fail, no bottle bac is required.

of the four ways we reef cycle, live rock transfer skip cycles are how reef conventions are created instantly with 300 tanks with fifty thousand in reef rock, fish and corals all ready to start on the same date. it is an unspoken cycling method because sellers use it, buyers don't get that training info they only get the kind they must pay for.

 

[CMarieDennison]

Marie

since cycling articles (and videos) don't delineate the various types, there are four main ways we cycle and each is a different mode, it's easy to confuse what we do for dry rock cycling (what you're doing with dr tims bottle bac + ammonia) and it seem strange compared to what bt wrote in post #14

your rocks aren't dry rocks, they don't need bacteria built up.

moving rocks among tanks never kills bacteria, it's harmless to them.

btmedic is describing a live rock transfer cycle

bottle bac sellers don't tell us of that type; because it needs no bac purchased nor ammonia dosed-they can't make money extra if folks know when their product isn't needed. exactly what he wrote in post #14 is your entire matter in one answer, you move the rocks and the cycle skips and no testing is required, it can't fail, no bottle bac is required.

of the four ways we reef cycle, live rock transfer skip cycles are how reef conventions are created instantly with 300 tanks with fifty thousand in reef rock, fish and corals all ready to start on the same date. it is an unspoken cycling method because sellers use it, buyers don't get that training info they only get the kind they must pay for.

So I had read into this but according to afew articles and some advice I got from other reefers, the consensus was that since the water volume was so different (upgrade from 20 gallons to 125 gallons), my little but of rock wouldn't be enough and my tank would have to cycle anyway. I didn't want to chance hurting my buddies, so I tried to err on the side of caution. You think this was overkill?

 

[brandon429]

they're wrong. they're backwards, actually.

adding dilution helps your cause, it doesn't hurt or stress anything. you cannot get correct cycling information from 90% of what you read on forums as peers just make up stuff and pass it down the line for 20 years.

here's how they're backwards: lets say by some magic that lifting over rocks into the new tank harmed 50% of the current bacteria on those rocks.

you are transferring over the same bioload/number of fish from the prior tank

that leaves dilution; if you are moving into a smaller tank, less dilution, then that 50% lost bacteria gets compound insulted because wastes are now much stronger in concentration...less dilution. the fish see higher ammonia pressure even though they output the same amount, less dilution to spread it out.

and if you were doubling dilution, the impact of that same bioload is much less per square inch of contact area and it presents as % less nh3 to burn fish with.

having extra dilution is good, not bad for the worst-case scenario.

moving rocks among tanks simply harms nothing, even if we do it from a pet store to home, as a brand new reef, and skip that cycle. Here is nine pages of that exact type of cycle, rocks home from a pet store and then skip cycle:

A thread tracking pure skip cycle instant reefs, no bottle bac

70G Rubbermaid. Added a piece of live rock that’s 2 inch by 2 inch from current tank, 2 rock structures for new build and 4 krill immediately after mixing salt. Tossed 1 pill of vitamin c, d3, and b12. 2 vials of biodigest start and 2 of stop amino. This was Friday. fast forward to Saturday I...

www.reef2reef.com

you can see in that live rock transfer thread, we never discuss dilution. I don't ask if they're moving to a smaller or larger system bc it doesn't matter, the rocks are fully cycled as they move from one tank to another. you can't uncycle live rocks unless you cheat/bleach or boiling or freezing.

 

[brandon429]

the end result is that moving to a new tank in the home is the same as moving rocks from a pet store into a brand new tank, they're both skip cycle events, and so is taking a nine year old reef apart and carting it to a MACNA convention in parts, setting it back up on clean sand as a skip cycle for the convention, and then parting it all out again and skip cycling back home.

no bottle bac is used in any of those steps, and in fact that's the title of our thread: don't use bottle bac in this kind of cycle. pretty neat / the changing tide of reef cycling rules.

whoever gets to write a brand new article on cycling the reef tank now has lots of our grouping data to work with