Upgrading my Return Pump- Suggestions?

[mikedb]

Okay! I think we are basically back to the beginning, having now thoroughly established that Reef Octopus Varios pumps are not capable of meeting published specifications, and that Coralvue will void the warranty for use within the specifications the publish. Strange!

So, I am left trying to find a better return pump. And having read everyone's responses, I think I should at least consider an Internal AC pump, despite the loss in control I would experience. However, I can't seem to find one that can pump at the head heights I require?

DC, Apex Controllable Pumps:

• Abyzz A100: $1200 + $184 for interface cable
  • Seems like the nicest option. Downsides are the price, and that CoralVue is the rep...
  • All other Abyzz pumps have been updated with an 'IPU' version.
• Red Dragon 3 Speedy Pressure: $900
  • Not clear whether the 0-10V interface is built in. Will be near the edge of its head height capabilities

DC, Non-Apex Pumps:

• Syncra SDC 9.0: $368
  • Very reasonable cost, and seems easily capable of handling my application. Noise?

AC Pumps:

• No submersible pumps I can find? Unfortunately, an external pump is out of the question for my setup.

Which of the above options would be the quietest?

 

[mfinn]

@slief should be able to answer any questions you have on a RD3 pump.

 

[jda]

So, I am left trying to find a better return pump.

Nothing that you have looked at is better than your Pan World. If The Abyzz might be as good, but you know the price to try it and see.

The rest are not made for what you are doing. You are going to likely be disappointed in the long term.

Mag 24 or 36 could handle that head, but they can get loud. Laguna 2900 did about 600-800 GPH out of my basement, but my sump was elevated on a table - 4280 definitely could.

 

[scardall]

Okay! I think we are basically back to the beginning, having now thoroughly established that Reef Octopus Varios pumps are not capable of meeting published specifications, and that Coralvue will void the warranty for use within the specifications the publish. Strange!

So, I am left trying to find a better return pump. And having read everyone's responses, I think I should at least consider an Internal AC pump, despite the loss in control I would experience. However, I can't seem to find one that can pump at the head heights I require?

DC, Apex Controllable Pumps:

• Abyzz A100: $1200 + $184 for interface cable
  • Seems like the nicest option. Downsides are the price, and that CoralVue is the rep...
  • All other Abyzz pumps have been updated with an 'IPU' version.
• Red Dragon 3 Speedy Pressure: $900
  • Not clear whether the 0-10V interface is built in. Will be near the edge of its head height capabilities

DC, Non-Apex Pumps:

• Syncra SDC 9.0: $368
  • Very reasonable cost, and seems easily capable of handling my application. Noise?

AC Pumps:

• No submersible pumps I can find? Unfortunately, an external pump is out of the question for my setup.

Which of the above options would be the quietest?

I would choose red dragon3 . http://royalexclusiv.com/Flow-Pumps...400-gph-10V-connection-HIGHPRESSURE::713.html It will do the job according to chart at 13' and 660gph. MY CHOOSE.

 

[mikedb]

@slief should be able to answer any questions you have on a RD3 pump.

Hi @slief, it looks like a Red Dragon pump is ideal for me... could you answer a few questions?

1. Could you confirm that usage at 14' head height at 500gpm is suitable for the Red Dragon Speedy 3 HIGHPRESSURE pump?
2. Will the pump be silent, or near silent, under those conditions?
3. Does that pump come with a built-in 3.5mm 0-10V connection, or is an external A : D converter required (such as part 604/C/Apex from your website)?

Thanks!
Mike

 

[scardall]

Hi @slief, it looks like a Red Dragon pump is ideal for me... could you answer a few questions?

1. Could you confirm that usage at 14' head height at 500gpm is suitable for the Red Dragon Speedy 3 HIGHPRESSURE pump?
2. Will the pump be silent, or near silent, under those conditions?
3. Does that pump come with a built-in 3.5mm 0-10V connection, or is an external A : D converter required (such as part 604/C/Apex from your website)?

Thanks!
Mike

check this link out http://royalexclusiv.com/Flow-Pumps...400-gph-10V-connection-HIGHPRESSURE::713.html plus go here.
For more information, please visit www.royal-exclusiv.de. Simply enter the part number or name into
the search box or email: [email protected] Hope this helps.

 

[mikedb]

check this link out http://royalexclusiv.com/Flow-Pumps...400-gph-10V-connection-HIGHPRESSURE::713.html plus go here.
For more information, please visit www.royal-exclusiv.de. Simply enter the part number or name into
the search box or email: [email protected] Hope this helps.

Thanks for the help! Unfortunately, none of the answers to my questions are provided on that product page.

Disappointingly, my messages to Royal Exclusiv through this forum (above), an email to [email protected], and a inquiry submitted on the http://royalexclusiv.com/ website have all gone unanswered for several days. I'm not sure I'm willing to spend almost $1000 if that is the level of support they provide.

So much for that idea... too bad, because the Red Dragon looked perfect.

 

[sarcophytonIndy]

If I were you, if it is at all possible, I would seriously consider raising the sump by 4 ft.

 

[mikedb]

If I were you, if it is at all possible, I would seriously consider raising the sump by 4 ft.

Unfortunately, that would be extremely difficult to accomplish and make working on my sump a real pain. I'd sooner pay Abyzz money.

 

[ksed]

Thanks for the help! Unfortunately, none of the answers to my questions are provided on that product page.

Disappointingly, my messages to Royal Exclusiv through this forum (above), an email to [email protected], and a inquiry submitted on the http://royalexclusiv.com/ website have all gone unanswered for several days. I'm not sure I'm willing to spend almost $1000 if that is the level of support they provide.

So much for that idea... too bad, because the Red Dragon looked perfect.

Yes! I found this to be the same. It’s a hit and miss with RE. Not worth the chance on spending that kind of money. Abyzz is a bit more but service is top.

 

[slief]

Hi @slief, it looks like a Red Dragon pump is ideal for me... could you answer a few questions?

1. Could you confirm that usage at 14' head height at 500gpm is suitable for the Red Dragon Speedy 3 HIGHPRESSURE pump?
2. Will the pump be silent, or near silent, under those conditions?
3. Does that pump come with a built-in 3.5mm 0-10V connection, or is an external A : D converter required (such as part 604/C/Apex from your website)?

Thanks!
Mike

Sorry the late reply. I didn’t see the notification for the tag in this post.

Keep in mind that if your head height is 14’, you likely have additional friction losses that will increase the total head loss. So we would need to know what the actual head height is, how many 90’s and other fittings you have and the pipe size. Running oversized pipe between the pump and display will help reduce the friction losses. So if the pump and display are 1”, using 1.25 or even 1.5” pipe will help mitigate friction losses.

These pumps are virtually silent. When I got my first RD3 230, I plumbed it into my system on my closed loop. When I first fired it up, it was so quite and vibration free that I literally though I had a dead pump. I was seriously cursing. It wasn’t until I looked under my rocks (that’s where my closed loop dumps out) and saw sand blasting out that I realized how quiet these pumps are.

What pump are you looking at? The RD3 100 needs the 0-10v interface adapter box. The RD3 150 and RD3 230 only require a cable.

 

[mikedb]

Sorry the late reply. I didn’t see the notification for the tag in this post.

Keep in mind that if your head height is 14’, you likely have additional friction losses that will increase the total head loss. So we would need to know what the actual head height is, how many 90’s and other fittings you have and the pipe size. Running oversized pipe between the pump and display will help reduce the friction losses. So if the pump and display are 1”, using 1.25 or even 1.5” pipe will help mitigate friction losses.

These pumps are virtually silent. When I got my first RD3 230, I plumbed it into my system on my closed loop. When I first fired it up, it was so quite and vibration free that I literally though I had a dead pump. I was seriously cursing. It wasn’t until I looked under my rocks (that’s where my closed loop dumps out) and saw sand blasting out that I realized how quiet these pumps are.

What pump are you looking at? The RD3 100 needs the 0-10v interface adapter box. The RD3 150 and RD3 230 only require a cable.

Hi there! Thanks so much for your reply.

The vertical rise in my system is around 10'. The 14' number includes the associated plumbing losses at 500gph. I arrived at the 14' estimate by comparing my the actual flow rates on my Varios 8 pump against the published curve for that pump. I think it is a reasonable estimate, as I am running 1-1/2" piping with only 45* bends between the pump and the tie-in to the Red Sea plumbing.

I was indeed looking at the RD3 100W. Are you confident that this pump will remain silent even on the far-right side of the head loss curve? I realize that it would be silent in a closed loop configuration, but what I have observed with my Varios is that the noise increases significantly when pushed to the upper range of its pressure specifications.

FYI, your website might need updating... the RD3 100W product name on your website currently reads "Red Dragon® 3 Speedy 100 Watt / 2400 gph / 10V connection HIGHPRESSURE" [emphasis added]. The descrption reads "100 Watt/h 19 feet (6 mtr.) pressure height speed adjustable Brushless DC pump with 10V connection" [emphasis added]. Am I correct that there is actually no 10V connection on the controller?

I have to admit, the lack of answer to my email to [email protected] from three days ago and the lack of response to my web inquiry yesterday morning has me a little concerned. What is the typical turnaround time for inquiries and support requests? Did I do something wrong?

 

[scardall]

Hi there! Thanks so much for your reply.

The vertical rise in my system is around 10'. The 14' number includes the associated plumbing losses at 500gph. I arrived at the 14' estimate by comparing my the actual flow rates on my Varios 8 pump against the published curve for that pump. I think it is a reasonable estimate, as I am running 1-1/2" piping with only 45* bends between the pump and the tie-in to the Red Sea plumbing.

I was indeed looking at the RD3 100W. Are you confident that this pump will remain silent even on the far-right side of the head loss curve? I realize that it would be silent in a closed loop configuration, but what I have observed with my Varios is that the noise increases significantly when pushed to the upper range of its pressure specifications.

FYI, your website might need updating... the RD3 100W product name on your website currently reads "Red Dragon® 3 Speedy 100 Watt / 2400 gph / 10V connection HIGHPRESSURE" [emphasis added]. The descrption reads "100 Watt/h 19 feet (6 mtr.) pressure height speed adjustable Brushless DC pump with 10V connection" [emphasis added]. Am I correct that there is actually no 10V connection on the controller?

I have to admit, the lack of answer to my email to [email protected] from three days ago and the lack of response to my web inquiry yesterday morning has me a little concerned. What is the typical turnaround time for inquiries and support requests? Did I do something wrong?

Did you see this flow chart. try clicking on PDF FOLDERS in the middle of this page. 1st one the data sheet one. http://royalexclusiv.com/Flow-Pumps...400-gph-10V-connection-HIGHPRESSURE::713.html the flow at 157.5" is 680gph . The followindg data seems to indicate that with and adapter( http://royalexclusiv.com/Flow-Pumps...nnection-for-RD3-with-50-60-80-100W::788.html )to the 10v the following applies: "
Functioning of the electronics:
Once a voltage > 0,5V to the 10V interface is, the interface adapter takes over controlling and the system and lock(disable) the buttons on the controller. Voltage will be < 0,5V normal controller operation and the buttons are again released. So can the interface adapter stay connected without performing a function.

If the Aquarium(tank)-computer voltage under 0,5V the 0-10V interface is shut down and the pump can be operated manually. From 0,5V, the interface will take over control of the scheme. In the area of 0,5V-0,8V the pump is switched off. 1V starts the pump at the lowest level (15W) and run. At an increase of 0,5V will increase the level, also. So 1V = 15W 1,5V = 20W 2V = 25W….. 7,5V = 100W.

At a higher input voltage remains the Speedy controller to the maximum setting are available and no longer increases. The interface adapter behaves as if the corresponding would push the button. "

 

[sarcophytonIndy]

Unfortunately, that would be extremely difficult to accomplish and make working on my sump a real pain. I'd sooner pay Abyzz money.

I didn't realize it was already on a table. Nice setup!!

 

[slief]

Hi there! Thanks so much for your reply.

The vertical rise in my system is around 10'. The 14' number includes the associated plumbing losses at 500gph. I arrived at the 14' estimate by comparing my the actual flow rates on my Varios 8 pump against the published curve for that pump. I think it is a reasonable estimate, as I am running 1-1/2" piping with only 45* bends between the pump and the tie-in to the Red Sea plumbing.

I was indeed looking at the RD3 100W. Are you confident that this pump will remain silent even on the far-right side of the head loss curve? I realize that it would be silent in a closed loop configuration, but what I have observed with my Varios is that the noise increases significantly when pushed to the upper range of its pressure specifications.

FYI, your website might need updating... the RD3 100W product name on your website currently reads "Red Dragon® 3 Speedy 100 Watt / 2400 gph / 10V connection HIGHPRESSURE" [emphasis added]. The descrption reads "100 Watt/h 19 feet (6 mtr.) pressure height speed adjustable Brushless DC pump with 10V connection" [emphasis added]. Am I correct that there is actually no 10V connection on the controller?

I have to admit, the lack of answer to my email to [email protected] from three days ago and the lack of response to my web inquiry yesterday morning has me a little concerned. What is the typical turnaround time for inquiries and support requests? Did I do something wrong?

I respond to emails and PM's 7 days a week night and day. Normally emails to that address are responded to the following day since they are routed to Germany. But the guys from Germany are at a show in China this week which is why you didn't get a response. I will PM you my email address so you have it.

The 100w does have the 10v connection and is 10v ready but as I mentioned above, the 100w like the others below 150w all require the interface adapter box where as the 150w and 230w only require the 0-10v cable. The reason it states 10v connection is because the 80w pump which was the predecessor to the 100w came both with and without the 0-10v connection for the 0-10v interface kit and the one without the connection for the optional interface adapter box was less money. Essentially on the controller is a 3 pin din connector that attaches to the optional 0-10v interface kit. The 150w and 230w use a different controller that has all the 0-10 logic built in and also has a 4 pin din for the 0-10v cable. And I do agree, the website leaves much to be desired. It's managed by the headquarters in Germany and it's essentially a mirrored image of the factories .net site which makes it easy for them to add new products to both sites at once.

As for the noise, I am 100000% confident that these are the quietest DC pumps on the market and are as close to silent as a pump can be.

If you have an Apex, this is the 0-10 interface kit.

10V Controller Red Dragon® 3 Speedy pump RD3 APEX

10V Interface adapter for Red Dragon® 3 Speedy pump with 10V connection for controll Profilux or Apex GHL Neptune systems

royalexclusiv.com

If you have a GHL Profilux, this is the 0-10v interface kit.

10V Controller Red Dragon® 3 Speedy pump RD3 GHL

10V Interface adapter for Red Dragon® 3 Speedy pump with 10V connection for controll Profilux or Apex GHL Neptune systems

royalexclusiv.com

 

[mikedb]

I respond to emails and PM's 7 days a week night and day. Normally emails to that address are responded to the following day since they are routed to Germany. But the guys from Germany are at a show in China this week which is why you didn't get a response. I will PM you my email address so you have it.

The 100w does have the 10v connection and is 10v ready but as I mentioned above, the 100w like the others below 150w all require the interface adapter box where as the 150w and 230w only require the 0-10v cable. The reason it states 10v connection is because the 80w pump which was the predecessor to the 100w came both with and without the 0-10v connection for the 0-10v interface kit and the one without the connection for the optional interface adapter box was less money. Essentially on the controller is a 3 pin din connector that attaches to the optional 0-10v interface kit. The 150w and 230w use a different controller that has all the 0-10 logic built in and also has a 4 pin din for the 0-10v cable. And I do agree, the website leaves much to be desired. It's managed by the headquarters in Germany and it's essentially a mirrored image of the factories .net site which makes it easy for them to add new products to both sites at once.

As for the noise, I am 100000% confident that these are the quietest DC pumps on the market and are as close to silent as a pump can be.

If you have an Apex, this is the 0-10 interface kit.

10V Controller Red Dragon® 3 Speedy pump RD3 APEX

10V Interface adapter for Red Dragon® 3 Speedy pump with 10V connection for controll Profilux or Apex GHL Neptune systems

royalexclusiv.com

If you have a GHL Profilux, this is the 0-10v interface kit.

10V Controller Red Dragon® 3 Speedy pump RD3 GHL

10V Interface adapter for Red Dragon® 3 Speedy pump with 10V connection for controll Profilux or Apex GHL Neptune systems

royalexclusiv.com

Thanks, that all makes sense. Just one last question:

On the Apex interface unit, is the connection to the apex made via a 3.5mm (headphone) jack, or the RJ45 (network) jack? Since each of the apex's two RJ45 ports provides two 0-10V outputs (for a total of four outputs) and I am already using all but one (via Y Module Cables: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/y-module-cable-icecap.html), how would this work?

 

[slief]

Thanks, that all makes sense. Just one last question:

On the Apex interface unit, is the connection to the apex made via a 3.5mm (headphone) jack, or the RJ45 (network) jack? Since each of the apex's two RJ45 ports provides two 0-10V outputs (for a total of four outputs) and I am already using all but one (via Y Module Cables: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/y-module-cable-icecap.html), how would this work?

The connection from the Apex to the interface kit uses an RJ45 to RJ11 cable to connect to the interface adapter. That cable is included with the interface adapter. The interface adapter connects to the RD3 controller via an RJ12 (if I am not mistaken) on the interface side to 3 pin micro din cable on the RD3 controller side which is also included. So that cable you are looking at will not work but all cables needed for Apex connection are included with the Intercace adapter kit I linked to above. The Apex interface kit will take up the entire RJ45 on the Apex and won’t allow use of the 2nd variable speed port on that Apex RJ45 connection unless you make or find a straight through RJ45 Male to female Y adapter so you can access the 2nd variable speed port.

I sent you a PM. In it I also noted my contentions with using 0-10v on return pumps. I am not a fan of doing so and explained why in my PM.

 

[mikedb]

For the benefit of future users who may come across this thread, I thought I would document the outcome of my search for a new return pump.

I ended up choosing the Abyzz A100. While I was originally focused on the Red Dragon pump (especially after some informative and productive PMs with Scott), when I added the cost of the interface kit, and the additional Apex module that would have been required because two 0-10V outputs are required for the Red Dragon cable to work (I only have one free)), the cost benefits over the Abyzz started to wane.

But what crystallized the decision was a mystifying response from Royal Exclusiv corporate to a retailer I had contacted prior to finding Scott, the USA rep. They informed my that the 100W Red Dragon would not work for my application, and that I needed to use a 230W pump! That was pretty crazy considering I had been using a (relatively) cheap 80W pump for the past 10 months. I just wasn't getting a great feeling overall, and cut bait.

So, I ended up going with the Abyzz A100. And...

It's great! After break in, it is MUCH quieter than the Varios, and has much more consistent flow output too. It has plenty of power, being able to push 550gpm through my narrow Red Sea return piping (not to mention the 9' rise). The baby room is now silent, and you really have to listen to hear the pump noise beside the tank on the main floor. The pump keeps getting quieter every day, so it might even get better.

More info on the install and a more detailed comparison is located at my build thread: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/mikedbs-140-gallon-low-maintenance-peninsula.655200/post-6896541

Thanks for everyone's help! Mission accomplished.

 

[JoshH]

But what crystallized the decision was a mystifying response from Abyzz corporate to a retailer I had contacted after my original inquiries went without response (I had contacted them prior to finding Scott). They informed my that the 100W Red Dragon would not work, and that I needed to use a 230W pump!

So Abyzz Corporate informed you that a competitor's pump wouldn't work and you HAD to use the Abyzz 100 to achieve the results?

 

[mfinn]

But what crystallized the decision was a mystifying response from Abyzz corporate to a retailer I had contacted after my original inquiries went without response (I had contacted them prior to finding Scott). They informed my that the 100W Red Dragon would not work, and that I needed to use a 230W pump! That was pretty crazy considering I had been using a (relatively) cheap 80W pump for the past 10 months. I just wasn't getting a great feeling overall, and cut bait.
Thanks for everyone's help! Mission accomplished.

Glad you found the pump for your system.
But I am confused about the conversation.
Sounds like someone from Abyzz told your LFS that a competitors pump wouldn't work?
How???
Sounds a little???