URGENT: Mardel Quick Cure or Coopersafe?

[stageforkids]

Hey guys,

Fish list -
Blue hippo tang (the one with white spots)
Emperor Angel
Common Foxface
Two Garden Eels
Yellow watchman goby
White Sand Goby
Falco Hawk
Yellow Cory Wrasse
Algae Blenny
Parrotfish
Azure Damsel
Sailfin Tang


Some spots, flashing - I've removed the inverts.
In DT - Can't do QT - no coral, FOWLR.

Mardel Quick Cure or Fritz Coppersafe, please?

Covering Ich and maybe Velvet.

Thank you!

 

[BristleWormHater]

@Slocke @vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal

 

[stageforkids]

@Slocke @vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal

Thank you!

 

[C_AWOL]

I think it would be hard to ensure effectiveness of the formalin in quick cure due to all the stuff in the aquarium so I would opt for the use of copper with testing after removal of whatever rock you don't want to get impregnated with copper.

 

[JayM]

Likely coppersafe, but it would be best to describe symptoms in great detail and post pics and video under white light.

And be warned that rocks and sand can/will absorb copper and potentially make it difficult to maintain therapeutic levels. You’ll also spend considerable amount of time removing all traces of copper before you can place any inverts back in the tank after treatment is complete.

 

[stageforkids]

Sand bed. Live rocks.
Have UV, no carbon.
Have skimmer.
Have chaeto - can remove.
Ich management, had before. Something triggered, did H2O2 previously but somehow this time didn't work. Moving along.
Won't be adding anymore fish, coral or invert.

Crucial point for Blue Hippo Tang, need to take action.
Have both MArdel Quick cure and Fritz Coppersafe.

Strong fish, eating well for all, five types of flakes and frozen brine and mysis - fed 4-5 times a day, with Selcon and 2 other types of fish multivitamins.
+ Beta glucan, garlic essence, spirulina powder, vitamin c.

 

[stageforkids]

I think it would be hard to ensure effectiveness of the formalin in quick cure due to all the stuff in the aquarium so I would opt for the use of copper with testing after removal of whatever rock you don't want to get impregnated with copper.

Thank you! With the new info, any thoughts on that?

 

[stageforkids]

Likely coppersafe, but it would be best to describe symptoms in great detail and post pics and video under white light.

And be warned that rocks and sand can/will absorb copper and potentially make it difficult to maintain therapeutic levels. You’ll also spend considerable amount of time removing all traces of copper before you can place any inverts back in the tank after treatment is complete.

Yes sir, here you go! Not covering the body, but you see the few white spots, rubing against rocks. Thank you!

 

[stageforkids]

I'm open to other fish-safe ideas too? I'm in Singapore - there's a shortage of Ruby Rally Pro.

 

[C_AWOL]

Sand bed. Live rocks.
Have UV, no carbon.
Have skimmer.
Have chaeto - can remove.
Ich management, had before. Something triggered, did H2O2 previously but somehow this time didn't work. Moving along.
Won't be adding anymore fish, coral or invert.

Crucial point for Blue Hippo Tang, need to take action.
Have both MArdel Quick cure and Fritz Coppersafe.

Strong fish, eating well for all, five types of flakes and frozen brine and mysis - fed 4-5 times a day, with Selcon and 2 other types of fish multivitamins.
+ Beta glucan, garlic essence, spirulina powder, vitamin c.

I would shut off the UV since I'm not sure about the interactions between it and coppersafe (I vaguely recall an interaction with cupramine which is a different formulation but better safe than sorry)

Skimmer is fine to continue using but I'm not sure if chaeto can survive being put in that high of a concentration of copper (never tried myself)

Peroxide from what I read can be effective but since it's indiscriminate, it's harder to maintain what I presume is a "theraputic level" as organic material increases over time. Not sure what would be a reliable method to check is but it's likely best to go with copper which has a fantastic testing option in the form of a hanna checker.

https://app.calconic.com/public/calculator/5c1f3b80cfbb64001b85c089 this should help as a starting point but you will need to dose additional quantities of coppersafe to bring yourself to a theraputic level after the initial dose + some testing due to sand (assuming you remove all the rock) absorbing some of the copper (preferably quicker than slower since it's important to get to the therapeutic levels rapidly to actually be effective)

You could possibly remove all of the sand + rock if you have a sump prefilled with alternative media already but I would personally leave the sand in despite it absorbing due to the risk of it not being well cleaned and causing a major nutrient spike.

If possible I would also try and have pre-mixed + saltwater thats matched in salinity + pre-dosed to theraputic levels of copper (2.25-2.50) to help you manage likely ammonia spikes due to sponge + micro invert die off.

 

[C_AWOL]

I'm open to other fish-safe ideas too? I'm in Singapore - there's a shortage of Ruby Rally Pro.

Rally pro would likely be similarly as effective as quick cure. In a display I think it would be fairly minimal due to many variables compared to dips (which are not really effective on ich cyst but may offer relief if velvet/brook). Copper at 2.25-2.50 will handle both ich and velvet for sure if maintained at that level (be sure to carefully monitor ammonia as well!)

Edit: https://www.krakkingkorals.com.au/pages/copper-power-dosage-calculator
This calculator will likely be more useful since you use metric over imperial measurements

 

[stageforkids]

Thanks a million! What's the alternative to not having a Hanna checker? I have dosed hydrogen peroxide at 9 am (it is now 1.30 pm) - 5 ml (39 gallon) - just to parasites in check whilst I decide the next step. I am panicking now. Dear heavens.

Rally pro would likely be similarly as effective as quick cure. In a display I think it would be fairly minimal due to many variables compared to dips (which are not really effective on ich cyst but may offer relief if velvet/brook). Copper at 2.25-2.50 will handle both ich and velvet for sure if maintained at that level (be sure to carefully monitor ammonia as well!)

 

[stageforkids]

Ok - I suddenly wondered - will Quick Cure be easily removed from the tank? Would it be ok to use quick cure first, since I can use it halving the dosage to see how that goes, and in 3 days, if it doesn't work, then I could go to Coppersafe? With the copper getting into everything, and I am assuming Mardel Quick Cure (MQC) doesn't?

 

[C_AWOL]

Thanks a million! What's the alternative to not having a Hanna checker? I have dosed hydrogen peroxide at 9 am (it is now 1.30 pm) - 5 ml (39 gallon) - just to parasites in check whilst I decide the next step. I am panicking now. Dear heavens.

In the past I used the seachem test kit/salifert copper test kit when using cupramine (I no longer use cupramine and now use copper power/cupramine based on whats on sale when needed). It's a nightmare to read and ever since I've gotten a hanna I haven't tried anything else due to how much better it is.

I would suggest that you just eat the cost of a checker just to not play the guessing game since copper at too high of a concentration is fatal and copper at too low of a concentration is essentially ineffective (Checker is definitely cheaper than replacing all of your fish). Being unsure as to what a test may be reading to me is basically the same thing as not knowing at all in this situation.

As far as my understanding for peroxide dosing, it was apparently more effective dosing at multiple intervals due to it breaking down fairly rapidly (due to light + organic material) to greater improve the likelihood of eradicating ich vs doing one large bolus dose. Regardless I would discontinue using that method since I don't think it would be effective in a quick enough manner at this point.

 

[stageforkids]

In the past I used the seachem test kit/salifert copper test kit when using cupramine (I no longer use cupramine and now use copper power/cupramine based on whats on sale when needed). It's a nightmare to read and ever since I've gotten a hanna I haven't tried anything else due to how much better it is.

I would suggest that you just eat the cost of a checker just to not play the guessing game since copper at too high of a concentration is fatal and copper at too low of a concentration is essentially ineffective (Checker is definitely cheaper than replacing all of your fish). Being unsure as to what a test may be reading to me is basically the same thing as not knowing at all in this situation.

As far as my understanding for peroxide dosing, it was apparently more effective dosing at multiple intervals due to it breaking down fairly rapidly (due to light + organic material) to greater improve the likelihood of eradicating ich vs doing one large bolus dose. Regardless I would discontinue using that method since I don't think it would be effective in a quick enough manner at this point.

It's nearly impossible to get the Hanna checker here in Singapore - I'd need to order it from overseas, and that's going to take weeks, which I don't think I have.

 

[C_AWOL]

Ok - I suddenly wondered - will Quick Cure be easily removed from the tank? Would it be ok to use quick cure first, since I can use it halving the dosage to see how that goes, and in 3 days, if it doesn't work, then I could go to Coppersafe? With the copper getting into everything, and I am assuming Mardel Quick Cure (MQC) doesn't?

As far as I know the only thing in quick cure that is effective against marine ich is formalin. Not sure what mardels concentration is (I would guess it's about 3% just like the hikari one+many other formulations of Malachite green + Formalin) but typically for dips, I use 37% concentration (almost 12x more concentrated in comparison in an extremely well aerated container at 1ml per gallon outdoors)

I'm sure someone else can chime in with a ppm/quantity to use in a display but halving what I assume to be 3% formalin will make it a waste to dose entirely (also I'm not particularly sure on what concentration of malachite green becomes toxic if you did dose enough to reach 37% concentration of formalin)

Long story short, I wouldn't bother doing quick cure first and then copper after. That wasted time can be used to get a hanna and start copper asap. The longer you wait for ich (even more so if velvet but fortunately the photo doesn't look like that) the more likely it will be that you fail at the treatment.

 

[stageforkids]

Thank you very much, I've got bottles right in front or me. I've also got Paraguard. Still thinking and stressing; what say the other professionals chiming in?

As far as I know the only thing in quick cure that is effective against marine ich is formalin. Not sure what mardels concentration is (I would guess it's about 3% just like the hikari one+many other formulations of Malachite green + Formalin) but typically for dips, I use 37% concentration (almost 12x more concentrated in comparison in an extremely well aerated container at 1ml per gallon outdoors)

I'm sure someone else can chime in with a ppm/quantity to use in a display but halving what I assume to be 3% formalin will make it a waste to dose entirely (also I'm not particularly sure on what concentration of malachite green becomes toxic if you did dose enough to reach 37% concentration of formalin)

Long story short, I wouldn't bother doing quick cure first and then copper after. That wasted time can be used to get a hanna and start copper asap. The longer you wait for ich (even more so if velvet but fortunately the photo doesn't look like that) the more likely it will be that you fail at the tre

 

[stageforkids]

As far as I know the only thing in quick cure that is effective against marine ich is formalin. Not sure what mardels concentration is (I would guess it's about 3% just like the hikari one+many other formulations of Malachite green + Formalin) but typically for dips, I use 37% concentration (almost 12x more concentrated in comparison in an extremely well aerated container at 1ml per gallon outdoors)

I'm sure someone else can chime in with a ppm/quantity to use in a display but halving what I assume to be 3% formalin will make it a waste to dose entirely (also I'm not particularly sure on what concentration of malachite green becomes toxic if you did dose enough to reach 37% concentration of formalin)

Long story short, I wouldn't bother doing quick cure first and then copper after. That wasted time can be used to get a hanna and start copper asap. The longer you wait for ich (even more so if velvet but fortunately the photo doesn't look like that) the more likely it will be that you fail at the treatment.

@C_AWOL - is it easy to remove Quick Cure?

 

[stageforkids]

The other thing is; I can try find the Hanna but that will need time - will I still be able to use the MQC first whilst waiting for the Hanna? Cause I don't know if I can even get the Hanna.

 

[C_AWOL]

It's nearly impossible to get the Hanna checker here in Singapore - I'd need to order it from overseas, and that's going to take weeks, which I don't think I have.

If that's the situation then I would actually suggest going the route of hyposalinity since a quality calibrated refractometer/lab grade hydrometer should be accessible (Since the one photo provided doesn't seem to be velvet at all to me). Just make sure you have a good auto top off to consistently maintain the proper salinity of 1.008-1.009 (preferably 1.009) for 35 days after the last spots are fully gone and to very carefully monitor ammonia (Do water changes with 1.008/1.009 salinity water of the same temperature so theres no discrepancys in salinity reading. The clock starts over the moment you go above 1.009)

Having no good method to measure copper makes it pointless+probably more dangerous to use over hypo in this situation.

Thank you very much, I've got bottles right in front or me. I've also got Paraguard. Still thinking and stressing; what say the other professionals chiming in?

Paragard to my knowledge is entirely ineffective for marine ich. It's never been my go to for various diseases/maladies so I'm not even sure it does anything for marine fish compared to nitrafurazone/kanamycin (of which these are also ineffective against ich)

@C_AWOL - is it easy to remove Quick Cure?

Malachite green will stain porous materials but will likely dissapate over time aside from any silicone. Formalin is extremely unstable to my knowledge and will break down fairly quickly.

The other thing is; I can try find the Hanna but that will need time - will I still be able to use the MQC first whilst waiting for the Hanna? Cause I don't know if I can even get the Hanna.

Just to be as clear as possible, I don't think quick cure will be effective in any shape or form in the display tank for marine ich due to how the life cycle of ich + low concentration of formalin. It's possible that the concentration of formalin in your quick cure could be even lower than my assumed 3% if the bottle has been opened for a long period of time. It will be a waste of time to just dose it in an attempt to slow down the disease.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/hyposalinity.880546/I recommend reading this and following this exactly for your situation since I think it's a better option for you with the additional information available. It will cover marine ich + flukes as an added bonus when done properly (but not velvet)