Urgent - Prazi treatment

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi,
I’m checking back in 9 days later..
So I haven’t seen flashing since my second dose of Prazipro which was put in last week Tuesday morning.
Until last night and this morning I’m seeing one fish flashing again..
Today is day 9 from the second dose.. should I be putting in a third dose?

The flashing seems to have mostly cleared up in the tank, and I don’t want it to get bad again…

(The tank has Cupramine in it too at .58)

Depending on the species of fluke involved, three treatments (or even more) may be needed in order to break the life cycle. We always hope that two will do it, but sometimes it doesn't.

Here is the issue: bacteria grows in your aquarium with each prazipro dose, that bacteria feeds on the praziquantel in the water. With each dose, there is more bacteria. Eventually, the bacteria eats the prazi as fast as you are dosing it. If that happens (and nobody can tell you exactly when any given tank will reach that point) prazi just stops working. If that happens, hyposalinity is the best option.

Jay

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Depending on the species of fluke involved, three treatments (or even more) may be needed in order to break the life cycle. We always hope that two will do it, but sometimes it doesn't.

Here is the issue: bacteria grows in your aquarium with each prazipro dose, that bacteria feeds on the praziquantel in the water. With each dose, there is more bacteria. Eventually, the bacteria eats the prazi as fast as you are dosing it. If that happens (and nobody can tell you exactly when any given tank will reach that point) prazi just stops working. If that happens, hyposalinity is the best option.

Jay

Hi Jay,
I hope all is well!
Sorry to bother you again on this :/

So I’ve got 10 fish in my 75g DT that’s been in treatment the last 2 months. (We were talking about that a week ago).

The fish are currently in .58 Cupramine.
And went through 3 doses of Prazipro.
In general the prazi got rid of the flashing. But I noticed a little bit of flashing today, 9 days since the 3rd dose of Prazi.
It’s Super minor flashing though, and my thinking is that I want to wait it out to see if that gets worse or if it’s nothing but territorial stuff.
I take out copper from my tank on Thursday this week (30 days since last fish was added, and 2.5 months from when I had ich in the tank).
So if I need to dose prazipro again, I’d rather wait until Thursday as the fish go into a little shock when both are in the tank together.

That aside, all the fish look healthy, clean and eating well. but my Australian damsal (larger blue species with some yellow) wasn’t eating on Thursday and Friday.
I was out of town from Monday - Thursday and had automatic feeders for flakes and pellets running a few times a day.
So it could have started before Thursday.

He started eating today, and ate a few little bits. But most of the time he ate and immediately spat it back out, then tried eating again like 4/5 times and then moved onto another piece.
He definitely ate a few little bits, but mostly spat out.

Should I be worried?
He looks healthy otherwise, and is much more mobile today.. swimming around the tank nicely (which it wasn’t yesterday)

Could it maybe be bloating from only pellets and flakes while I was out of town..

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay,
I hope all is well!
Sorry to bother you again on this :/

So I’ve got 10 fish in my 75g DT that’s been in treatment the last 2 months. (We were talking about that a week ago).

The fish are currently in .58 Cupramine.
And went through 3 doses of Prazipro.
In general the prazi got rid of the flashing. But I noticed a little bit of flashing today, 9 days since the 3rd dose of Prazi.
It’s Super minor flashing though, and my thinking is that I want to wait it out to see if that gets worse or if it’s nothing but territorial stuff.
I take out copper from my tank on Thursday this week (30 days since last fish was added, and 2.5 months from when I had ich in the tank).
So if I need to dose prazipro again, I’d rather wait until Thursday as the fish go into a little shock when both are in the tank together.

That aside, all the fish look healthy, clean and eating well. but my Australian damsal (larger blue species with some yellow) wasn’t eating on Thursday and Friday.
I was out of town from Monday - Thursday and had automatic feeders for flakes and pellets running a few times a day.
So it could have started before Thursday.

He started eating today, and ate a few little bits. But most of the time he ate and immediately spat it back out, then tried eating again like 4/5 times and then moved onto another piece.
He definitely ate a few little bits, but mostly spat out.

Should I be worried?
He looks healthy otherwise, and is much more mobile today.. swimming around the tank nicely (which it wasn’t yesterday)

Could it maybe be bloating from only pellets and flakes while I was out of town..

Damsel's will take in food and spit it out if they are full. You should withhold food for 24 hours and then try some soft, small foods like diced mysids. If it is still spitting food out, then there is likely some internal issue - like gravel stuck in its mouth or stomach.

I would wait on the prazipro until the copper level is reduced to about half art the end of the treatment.

Jay

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Hi @vetteguy53081 & @Jay Hemdal

I’m about to pull out the cupramine from my Display Tank.
It’s been in there from 11/5/23 till today 1/31/24. I haven’t seen any ich since then.

Question,
I dipped the cupramine down from 0.5/6 area to 0.4 for the first few days in January while I was dosing prazipro.

Is my whole 2.5 month copper screwed up because of that now?
Or because it was still technically therapeutic at 0.4 it’s ok?

It’s been above .5 for the last 25 days if that helps too

Thanks!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi @vetteguy53081 & @Jay Hemdal

I’m about to pull out the cupramine from my Display Tank.
It’s been in there from 11/5/23 till today 1/31/24. I haven’t seen any ich since then.

Question,
I dipped the cupramine down from 0.5/6 area to 0.4 for the first few days in January while I was dosing prazipro.

Is my whole 2.5 month copper screwed up because of that now?
Or because it was still technically therapeutic at 0.4 it’s ok?

It’s been above .5 for the last 25 days if that helps too

Thanks!

IMO - Cupramine, being ionic copper, shouldn't be used for more than 30 days, sometimes 21 days is enough. Amine-based copper is what I prefer, that can be used for up to 4 months if need be. I'm not sure where you heard the 2.5 month timeline, that isn't correct.

Are you still seeing possible issues with protozoans?

 

[Aronsaquarium]

IMO - Cupramine, being ionic copper, shouldn't be used for more than 30 days, sometimes 21 days is enough. Amine-based copper is what I prefer, that can be used for up to 4 months if need be. I'm not sure where you heard the 2.5 month timeline, that isn't correct.

Are you still seeing possible issues with protozoans?

So the 2.5 months isn’t according to anyone..
More that I added a fish 31 days ago, so I reset that 30 days essentially..
I don’t think I’m seeing any ich issues, and it has been 25 days above .5

This is in my display tank, so I do know there’s a 76 days fallow recommendation which I assume means if I have copper in there for that duration it should achieve the same thing.

It should have never gone below 0.4 in the last 2.5 months though.
I know the Hana checker has a .05 err rate. So technically if it’s was saying around 0.4 on the checker, it could have gone just below 0.4.
But assuming we’re recommending based on the Hanna checker numbers.
It wasn’t below 0.4

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So the 2.5 months isn’t according to anyone..
More that I added a fish 31 days ago, so I reset that 30 days essentially..
I don’t think I’m seeing any ich issues, and it has been 25 days above .5

This is in my display tank, so I do know there’s a 76 days fallow recommendation which I assume means if I have copper in there for that duration it should achieve the same thing.

It should have never gone below 0.4 in the last 2.5 months though.
I know the Hana checker has a .05 err rate. So technically if it’s was saying around 0.4 on the checker, it could have gone just below 0.4.
But assuming we’re recommending based on the Hanna checker numbers.
It wasn’t below 0.4

Ah, I see. It is usually not a good idea to reset the quarantine clock by adding more fish, although I have done it by giving the original fish a few weeks break from copper. If you think you will need to do that, best to use coppersafe, it is milder.

Jay

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Ah, I see. It is usually not a good idea to reset the quarantine clock by adding more fish, although I have done it by giving the original fish a few weeks break from copper. If you think you will need to do that, best to use coppersafe, it is milder.

Jay

Ok Thank you so much for your time and expertise

So I guess what I’m getting out of this is that hopefully it should be good with where it is at now.
If an issue does come up though, I should use coppersafe instead..

I’ve ordered Fritz coppersafe, so I’ll have on hand if worst case scenario I need to redose.
I really Hope not though!

Does coppersafe come out (in a display tank) like Cupramine dose?

I’ve been able to take Cupramine out in the past and successfully have inverts and coral roughly a month after removing.
(While keeping carbon in the system indefinitely as a backup in case the sand or rocks leaked any residual copper)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok Thank you so much for your time and expertise

So I guess what I’m getting out of this is that hopefully it should be good with where it is at now.
If an issue does come up though, I should use coppersafe instead..

I’ve ordered Fritz coppersafe, so I’ll have on hand if worst case scenario I need to redose.
I really Hope not though!

Does coppersafe come out (in a display tank) like Cupramine dose?

I’ve been able to take Cupramine out in the past and successfully have inverts and coral roughly a month after removing.
(While keeping carbon in the system indefinitely as a backup in case the sand or rocks leaked any residual copper)

Sorry - I meant if you use Coppersafe in the future. Switching to coppersafe while running a Cupramine treatment is tricky - you'll need to remove all the Cupramine first, then dose the Copeprsafe.

Coppersafe is more stable and stays in solution better than Cupramine does.

Jay

 

[Phlynamjax]

IMO - Cupramine, being ionic copper, shouldn't be used for more than 30 days, sometimes 21 days is enough. Amine-based copper is what I prefer, that can be used for up to 4 months if need be. I'm not sure where you heard the 2.5 month timeline, that isn't correct.

Are you still seeing possible issues with protozoans?

For my own learning, why do you recommend less than 30 days for ionic copper?

 

[Aronsaquarium]

So I’ve had different variations of this conversation with Jay and Vetteguy for a while..
Jay will I’m sure correct me if I’m wrong lol but Cupramine is quite toxic to the fish.
I’ve lost fish in Cupramine.. and being that that’s the case, he’s recommending keeping it in for the minimum amount as possible.

When they say 76 days fallow, that’s for the rarest case of ich that stays in egg form for that long.
Most cases hatch within 21 days (I think even significantly less). But to be safe he’s saying give it 30 days if you can.

However, if you’re using coppersafe that’s much less toxic to the fish. You can keep it in there the full few months to be extra extra safe, and the fish will be fine.

That’s my understanding from Jay, but correct me if I’m wrong

 

[Phlynamjax]

So I’ve had different variations of this conversation with Jay and Vetteguy for a while..
Jay will I’m sure correct me if I’m wrong lol but Cupramine is quite toxic to the fish.
I’ve lost fish in Cupramine.. and being that that’s the case he’s recommending keeping in the minimum amount as possible.

When they say 76 days fallow, that’s for the rarest case of ich that stays in egg for for that long.
Most cases hatch within 21 days. But to be safe he’s saying give it 30 days.

However, if you’re using coppersafe that’s much less toxic to the fish. You can keep it in there the full few months to be extra extra safe, and the fish will be fine.

That’s my understanding from Jay, but correct me if I’m wrong

Thanks I was wondering because I am old time reefer and back in the day, cupramine was choice for copper. When I had a store, I had many fish that spent their entire life in cupramine without any issue. Thanks for your input as I want to learn more on why ionic copper should be avoid.

 

[Aronsaquarium]

Thanks I was wondering because I am old time reefer and back in the day, cupramine was choice for copper. When I had a store, I had many fish that spent their entire life in cupramine without any issue. Thanks for your input as I want to learn more on why ionic copper should be avoid.

I’ve wondered why stores use and sell Cupramine too..
It might just be the oldest one

But I think removing the copper might be easier with Cupramine. And most fish are fine with it.

But sensitive ones like flame angels don’t do well in it..
I think I wrote above that I lost my flame angel in Cupramine.
And I know stores also struggle keeping them alive in Cupramine.
So I’m not sure…

 

[Jay Hemdal]

For my own learning, why do you recommend less than 30 days for ionic copper?

Ionic copper is harsher and more prone to causing poor reactions in some fish species. I don't recommend ionic copper, but sometimes, people only have access to that, or have started an ionic treamtent and need to carry it through to completion....in those cases, we try to run as short of a copper treatment as possible.

Jay