Uronema or bacteria?

[Flame2hawk]

After raising getting copper mower to 2.3ppm over 2 days, I noticed this red sore on the side of one of my Aussie stripey’s. Since it seem sto have happened after the copper treatment was started (really quick however), I’m think it’s bacterial and not uronema. I have seperated the stripey and started enrofloxacin bath. no other fish in the QT showing any signs. Thoughts?

@Jay Hemdal

 

[W31Olds]

looks like Uronema to me.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

After raising getting copper mower to 2.3ppm over 2 days, I noticed this red sore on the side of one of my Aussie stripey’s. Since it seem sto have happened after the copper treatment was started (really quick however), I’m think it’s bacterial and not uronema. I have seperated the stripey and started enrofloxacin bath. no other fish in the QT showing any signs. Thoughts?

@Jay Hemdal

I can also see moderately severe damage to its caudal fin. To me, that shows some tankmate aggression issue.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I see aggression or injury, not uronema. While this can heal on its own, with redness, suggested is treatment in separate tank using seachem neoplex

 

[sgdnycct]

+1 on aggression

 

[Flame2hawk]

There are 5 stripey’s together and sometimes show moderate aggression especially during feeding. It w/b great if it was injury/aggression related. He is in a separate 5 gallon bucket with aeration and enrofloxacin dose. So far no other fish in the QT show any signs and are active and eating. I think I will profalactically treat QT with 1ml/10g formalin for 10 days as it Probably s/b part of my QT protocol regardless. Thoughts?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

There are 5 stripey’s together and sometimes show moderate aggression especially during feeding. It w/b great if it was injury/aggression related. He is in a separate 5 gallon bucket with aeration and enrofloxacin dose. So far no other fish in the QT show any signs and are active and eating. I think I will profalactically treat QT with 1ml/10g formalin for 10 days as it Probably s/b part of my QT protocol regardless. Thoughts?

If it is Uronema (I don’t think it is) formalin baths won’t help - the bulk of the infection is seated down in the tissues where the formalin cannot reach. I’ve used formalin to treat external Uronema, but that is seen in seahorses and seadragons.

 

[winxp_man]

Let me ask this. How is the fish acting? Eating swimming? Hiding? Also if it’s uronema the fish will most likely die in less than a week.

Just recently had 4 flames and two golden angles all die in QT. No other fish that showed any signs or died. This was about a month and a half ago. And in all my fish that got it, some got swelling in the uro lesion area. Uronema causes some swelling in the fishes final days. The way I know it was uro, is because I’m pretty much run a lab in my garage haha. Microscope and all.

Under the microscope once uro got in contact with Ruby rally pro bath, (3ml per gal), water it would not survive long under the microscope. While in copper no issues.

Have you seen other fish attack this fish? I currently have a tank with 15 fish. And aggression is there being they are getting restless after 30 days in copper for ich. And none show such damage as in your pictures. Three angles, one paki butterfly, and the rest tangs of sorts. This coming weekend they are done. And back into the big tank.

I can be aggression damage but also uro. If the fish is still swimming well, and eating possibly damage. If it’s not, then I would have to say possibly uro. Again just recently went through this. With dwarf angles.

 

[sgdnycct]

There are 5 stripey’s together and sometimes show moderate aggression especially during feeding. It w/b great if it was injury/aggression related. He is in a separate 5 gallon bucket with aeration and enrofloxacin dose. So far no other fish in the QT show any signs and are active and eating. I think I will profalactically treat QT with 1ml/10g formalin for 10 days as it Probably s/b part of my QT protocol regardless. Thoughts?

If it part of a well thought out QT then I’d say yes. However I’m always hesitant to medicate unless I have a good reason. Medications in general and worse mixing meds can cause their own problems so just make sure it’s a constructive part of your overall QT. I don’t have the link but jay has a full write up on how to do a thorough QT.

I don’t medicate unless I see for sure there’s a particle illness or parasite- there are always side effects. IMO.

 

[Flame2hawk]

If it is Uronema (I don’t think it is) formalin baths won’t help - the bulk of the infection is seated down in the tissues where the formalin cannot reach. I’ve used formalin to treat external Uronema, but that is seen in seahorses and seadragons.

So what is the treatment to cost tank and fish of uronema? Many hobbyist swear that formalin at 1mg/10g dose works!?

 

[Flame2hawk]

Let me ask this. How is the fish acting? Eating swimming? Hiding? Also if it’s uronema the fish will most likely die in less than a week.

Just recently had 4 flames and two golden angles all die in QT. No other fish that showed any signs or died. This was about a month and a half ago. And in all my fish that got it, some got swelling in the uro lesion area. Uronema causes some swelling in the fishes final days. The way I know it was uro, is because I’m pretty much run a lab in my garage haha. Microscope and all.

Under the microscope once uro got in contact with Ruby rally pro bath, (3ml per gal), water it would not survive long under the microscope. While in copper no issues.

Have you seen other fish attack this fish? I currently have a tank with 15 fish. And aggression is there being they are getting restless after 30 days in copper for ich. And none show such damage as in your pictures. Three angles, one paki butterfly, and the rest tangs of sorts. This coming weekend they are done. And back into the big tank.

I can be aggression damage but also uro. If the fish is still swimming well, and eating possibly damage. If it’s not, then I would have to say possibly uro. Again just recently went through this. With dwarf angles.

When I removed the fish from DT, it was eating, swimming and acting normally. No attacks that I’ve seen I personally am leaning more towards it being bacteria as a reaction to the copper power at 2.3ppm (3 days) or uronema.

 

[W31Olds]

Maybe that's a thing, but I don't know how Copper could cause a Bacterial Issue. Now say if Ich was dropping off fish because of it and leaving Wounds and Mucus Cones, yes possibly.

 

[vetteguy53081]

So what is the treatment to cost tank and fish of uronema? Many hobbyist swear that formalin at 1mg/10g dose works!?

Once tissue necrosis begins, generally too late. If caught early. Ruby Rally will help. Formalin is effective but needs to be used cautiously as it is both vapor harmful and risk to skin contact

 

[Flame2hawk]

Maybe that's a thing, but I don't know how Copper could cause a Bacterial Issue. Now say if Ich was dropping off fish because of it and leaving Wounds and Mucus Cones, yes possibly.

Yeah Ive had many circumstances when copper has led to secondary bacteria infection. I know it’s rather well documented as well. However, its happened after a couple of weeks of it and not 3 days….

 

[Flame2hawk]

Once tissue necrosis begins, generally too late. If caught early. Ruby Rally will help. Formalin is effective but needs to be used cautiously as it is both vapor harmful and risk to skin contact

Yes it is unlikely to assist once red sores are evident but in this case other fish have no signs so wanted to treat the QT with formalin as a precaution/prophylactically. I know many treat with formalin prophylactically as part of their QT protocol,

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yes it is unlikely to assist once red sores are evident but in this case other fish have no signs so wanted to treat the QT with formalin as a precaution/prophylactically. I know many treat with formalin prophylactically as part of their QT protocol,

If doing this, start with .5ml for a week and then dose full at .9 m/l per 10 useable gallons for 10 days

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

So what is the treatment to cost tank and fish of uronema? Many hobbyist swear that formalin at 1mg/10g dose works!?

I know, that’s all over the internet, but seriously, I know this topic very well and they are incorrect.

Uronema is not an obligate parasite, it is found in the majority of well established aquariums. They normally feed on bacteria. For some reason, during shipping and handling, these protozoans get inside the fish and begin feeding on internal tissue. By the time you see the external lesions, the damage has already been done internally. Like I said, external Uronema, a different species, can be controlled with formalin or chloroquine. That disease is only seen on seahorses and seadragons.

If you want to take a deep dive into the topic, here is an article I wrote on it:

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Flame2hawk]

I know, that’s all over the internet, but seriously, I know this topic very well and they are incorrect.

Uronema is not an obligate parasite, it is found in the majority of well established aquariums. They normally feed on bacteria. For some reason, during shipping and handling, these protozoans get inside the fish and begin feeding on internal tissue. By the time you see the external lesions, the damage has already been done internally. Like I said, external Uronema, a different species, can be controlled with formalin or chloroquine. That disease is only seen on seahorses and seadragons.

If you want to take a deep dive into the topic, here is an article I wrote on it:

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

Definitely confused as everything I’ve read states that once the red sores manifest’ it’s too late however you are saying to use formalin then. So what about the fish that are oil the DT that have no current outward sign of Uronema but have been possible exposed to what I thought was a highly contagious parasite? There is no effective prophylactic treatment? Thx!

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Definitely confused as everything I’ve read states that once the red sores manifest’ it’s too late however you are saying to use formalin then. So what about the fish that are oil the DT that have no current outward sign of Uronema but have been possible exposed to what I thought was a highly contagious parasite? What’s the remedy treatment? Thx!

Sorry no, that’s not what I meant by external Uronema - that is a specific disease seen in seahorses, looks like white nodules.

The external lesions that form at the end of an internal Uronema treatment is not treatable, in fact, formalin would cause the fish a severe amount of pain if dosed to an open lesion like that….

 

[Flame2hawk]

Sorry no, that’s not what I meant by external Uronema - that is a specific disease seen in seahorses, looks like white nodules.

The external lesions that form at the end of an internal Uronema treatment is not treatable, in fact, formalin would cause the fish a severe amount of pain if dosed to an open lesion like that….

That’s what i thought. So no treatment either possible internal uronema that has not manifested externally? Does this mean my fish in qt are doomed if thy happen to have uronema as there is nothing prophylactically that can be done ? Hope not as i have some rather expensive fish in there…..what would yu do? The 2 remedy’s I hear about most is Rally pro at 3mL/gallon or formalin.