Using Xenia in Refugium as nutrient export
- Thread starter Broadwave
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I had one for a while. It was quite beautiful and lucrative too, because it grew well and I routinely brought frags into the LFS for credit. Don't know how effective it was at nutrient export though, I've had much better success lowering my nitrates and phosphates with a remove DSB and ATS.
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Broadwave
Active Member
"one" meaning a refugium not a single stalk. Also, noticed a typo in my original response, a remote DSB not a remove one. Jeez.
I know what you meant ;-)
I've used one successfully for years, and once I was able to fine tune the design of my sump and flow from the Xenia fuge, I was able to turn my skimmer off because the skimmer stopped producing skimmate. The Xenia would out compete the skimmer. I would just use the skimmer for periodic oxygenation.
It sounds like the way you are approaching it is the right way.
According to Eric Borneman: Xenia are one of the first colonizers of a reef . They live in areas of high nutrient concentrations like hotel drains. They clean the waters for life to flourish.
I am paraphrasing the book.
It sounds like the way you are approaching it is the right way.
According to Eric Borneman: Xenia are one of the first colonizers of a reef . They live in areas of high nutrient concentrations like hotel drains. They clean the waters for life to flourish.
I am paraphrasing the book.
I remember reading Eric Borneman's book Aquarium Corals : Selection, Husbandry and Natural History.
If you don't own this book I would highly recommend buying it. It is a fantastic read, and most of it is still relevant today. Even though it was written in the 90s. This book gave the the idea of a Xenia fuge almost 2 decades ago. However I started implementing the Xenia fuge in 02. It took me several years to really "figure it out", and understand its potential.
If you don't own this book I would highly recommend buying it. It is a fantastic read, and most of it is still relevant today. Even though it was written in the 90s. This book gave the the idea of a Xenia fuge almost 2 decades ago. However I started implementing the Xenia fuge in 02. It took me several years to really "figure it out", and understand its potential.
40B Knasty
Valuable Member
I have no experience with a refugium with pulsing xenia. Just with cheato. I will just throw out my 2¢.
Pulsing Xenia is an animal. Macro algae is a plant. If you are looking to export nutrients, try the xenia. If you want to export nutrients and phosphates, use macro algae.
Pulsing Xenia is an animal. Macro algae is a plant. If you are looking to export nutrients, try the xenia. If you want to export nutrients and phosphates, use macro algae.
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Broadwave
Active Member
Thanks Troy, I knew I had read somewhere that Xenia could be used in a refugium.
40B, Not sure I entirely understand what you're saying? It's my understanding that all corals also uptake PO4 and NO3 as well as nutrients (Amino acids, elements in sea water etc..). Which is why people are now dosing Nitrates into their systems to enhance coloration and provide a food source for SPS and Phosphorus is part of the calcification process. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php
Can you elaborate on what you meant?
To clarify, obviously we want to keep PO4 at a low level > .03 ppm, but need to keep some in our systems to aid in calcification. Doesn't both animal and plant uptake at the same rate?
40B, Not sure I entirely understand what you're saying? It's my understanding that all corals also uptake PO4 and NO3 as well as nutrients (Amino acids, elements in sea water etc..). Which is why people are now dosing Nitrates into their systems to enhance coloration and provide a food source for SPS and Phosphorus is part of the calcification process. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php
Can you elaborate on what you meant?
To clarify, obviously we want to keep PO4 at a low level > .03 ppm, but need to keep some in our systems to aid in calcification. Doesn't both animal and plant uptake at the same rate?
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40B Knasty
Valuable Member
Like I said I have NO experience with a Xenia refugium. I don't get your need of a question if you are going to throughout a research study wrap sheet.
I had a Xenia for a year and it died. With all the corals I have. Phosphates were at 0.25 PO3-4.
1 fist size ball of cheato. The levels of phosphates are undetectable.
So the share volume size between the two to use as a refugium. Is probably not even close in comparison. Meaning you would need a 20g tank covered wall to wall with Xenia to match a golf ball size of cheato's equality to pulling phosphates.
First off let's look at the pros and cons.
1)You have to grow Xenia vs a $10 cheato ball.
2)You can sell your algae as well as you can sell the Xenia.
3)You can ship a plant a million times better.
4)Plants can handle temperature swings and parameter swings. Corals not even close.
5)Xenia growing in your plumbing is not good.
6)Killing a plant sounds a lot better than killing an animal.
7)Xenia looks really cool, but if it not being seen. It doesn't matter.
8)Some Xenia species are thought to release chemicals that can cause significant damage to stoney corals.
9)A whole refugium tank covered wall to wall with a Xenia species is going to just absorb mag, alk, and calcium I would imagine that your other corals would most certainly need and it would probably be way less of a hit on the wallet, because now the tank would need dosing.
10)Xenia would need a stable pH. Macro algae it probably does not matter.
11)Macro algae just needs light pretty much to keep. The tank will provide the rest.
Your call on what you want to do.
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Broadwave
Active Member
I genuinely appreciate the thought you put into your response. You make some very valid points I will take into consideration. Specifically your point in Xenia growing in plumbing. I've never thought of that.
Rufus’ goofs
Well-Known Member
Even Xenia require light. They would be very limited in how far they could grow into the plumbing. However, they would still have the ability to grow over and cover some of the most essential parts of the plumbing, which also (generally) happen the be some of the easiest to observe and clean. Inlets and outlets.
I grow chaeto, and I still will. It’s generally easier in all reapects other that preferring a different spectrum, and is a food for some reefers to re introduce as well as sell or trade/giveaway.
Xenia would make a much more appealing display fuge in my opinion. I love the way they pulse. Well... the pulsing kind.
I used chaeto for years in tandem with my Xenia fuge. In my mind I viewed it as: Xenia was the "tuner", and Chaeto was the "fine tuner." However when the Xenia is established and it ebbs and flows with your system it will out compete your Chaeto. But I still left it in another section of the fuge for backup export. Again I found the key to the success of a Xenia fuge is:
A- Making it deliberate. Like you are doing with a designated area.
B- Learn to read you Xenia. This is key if you wean your skimmer off the system.
C- Don't be afraid to feed your system. I fed mine 3 times a day with 2 different feeders. Never had an issue with SPS growth. I've read the literature on this and found it not to be true in my case. There are far too many variables to link slow SPS growth to Xenia. Like any other system once it's dialed in everything grew like a weed. Except unwanted algae. Also in 12+ years of keeping it I never had a crash.
A- Making it deliberate. Like you are doing with a designated area.
B- Learn to read you Xenia. This is key if you wean your skimmer off the system.
C- Don't be afraid to feed your system. I fed mine 3 times a day with 2 different feeders. Never had an issue with SPS growth. I've read the literature on this and found it not to be true in my case. There are far too many variables to link slow SPS growth to Xenia. Like any other system once it's dialed in everything grew like a weed. Except unwanted algae. Also in 12+ years of keeping it I never had a crash.
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Here is a video of how simple mine was. Just an acrylic cube and a drain hose from the DT. With a 150 watt MH and the cheapest 10k De bulb on eBay.
40B Knasty
Valuable Member
Putting some more thought into it. Here is what else I came up with.
1)A macro algae will absorb iron & copper and a few others that can be not so great for the tank. Who knows what is in our salt or makes it into our water when there is exhausted RO/DI filters. It would kind of be like a safety net using cheato.
2)Running a reverse photocycle from your main tank is key for 2 reasons.
1) so the cheato can release O² into the tank and absorb the CO² from our sleeping beauties in the DT and algae to make a more stable pH.
2) You don't want 2 system releasing CO² into the tank at the same time. This could possibly be a killer to fish and corals.
I am guessing you would want to run Xenia reverse photocycle also to help with the pH stability, but will the xenia miss out on nutrients from the DT. Kind of defeating the purpose of having a refugium of xenia since they are running in a reverse photocycle, because they will be sleeping while your whole system like the protein skimmer and filters pull most of it out and when the xenia wake to feed they will basically be getting the crumbs left over of your DT's nutrients. Here is where someone with experience would need to chime in for an answer. I am guessing it would be feed the Xenia. Now how do you do that?? Pull the skimmer at let more nutrients sit longer in your DT. By doing that then you are just leaving nutrients in the DT tank and thinking the Xenia is working, but the xenia is just feeding off the DT's lingering nutrients through the Xenia's photocycle. Personally I would want to keep the skimmer running for pulling nutrients constantly and have it adding O² 24/7 so while you have a stable pH of 8.1. The skimmer will give you that 8.2pH you strive for possibly.
40B Knasty
Valuable Member
That's awesome! I love pulsing xenias.
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Broadwave
Active Member
Here is more information around my current set up and why I've been looking into a Xenia dominant refugium.
My current system is 190 Gallon display, with a berlin style sump. The external refugium (57 gallons) is fed via manifold from my main return pump. The fuge, empties back in the filter sock section of the sump. Yes, I am aware of the fauna that could be fed to my system to feed the fish, etc.... but I had set it up that way on purpose. Mainly as I didnt want to clean my sump every other week. I also run a 4' Lifereef skimmer which really pulls the gunk out of my system. Lastly, I use ROX carbon changed monthly and Phosguard for phosphate removal. FWIW, I despise GFO with a passion, but that is topic of discussion for another day
When I had initially set up the refugium, I used Miracle Mud for the substrate, seeded with the refugium kit from Indo Pacific Sea Farms, and even went so far as to get the best lights I could and went with (2) Kessil H380's. For some reason I can not grow macro algae to save my life. The only Macro Algae that will grow is small sea grass, which I am ok with. However, the Red Sea Xenia I placed in there just keep growing and growing. So a couple weeks ago I started investigating if having a Xenia only refugium would be as efficient at removing Nitrate and Phosphate as Chaetomorpha? I believe that Xenia does indeed eat up the Nitrates as no matter how much I feed and I do feed quite a bit, my Nitrates are always at Zero. Phosphates on the other hand are just over .03ppm @ 12ppb. So I may need to start dosing Potassium Nitrate to help bring down the Phosphate. Again, patience and as Tony V said tuning it correctly. The main reason I asked the original question is that I didnt think I was the first person to embark on this type of fuge and that there had to be others that have already been and are down this road.
The current photo period is reverse of the display tank and runs from 9PM to 9AM. I haven't seen much variation in my pH and it stays fairly steady between 8.10 and 8.22.
As for additives, etc.... I use a dosing pump to add BRS 2 Part to keep dKH (8.4) and Ca (433). I also dose twice a day Zeovit Phols Extra and AALPS, which could be my my Xenia grows as fast as it does. Additionally, I feed daily one cube of American Reef HPD and one sheet of Nori every other day. This keeps my fish super fat and also helps to feed the corals.
My current system is 190 Gallon display, with a berlin style sump. The external refugium (57 gallons) is fed via manifold from my main return pump. The fuge, empties back in the filter sock section of the sump. Yes, I am aware of the fauna that could be fed to my system to feed the fish, etc.... but I had set it up that way on purpose. Mainly as I didnt want to clean my sump every other week. I also run a 4' Lifereef skimmer which really pulls the gunk out of my system. Lastly, I use ROX carbon changed monthly and Phosguard for phosphate removal. FWIW, I despise GFO with a passion, but that is topic of discussion for another day
When I had initially set up the refugium, I used Miracle Mud for the substrate, seeded with the refugium kit from Indo Pacific Sea Farms, and even went so far as to get the best lights I could and went with (2) Kessil H380's. For some reason I can not grow macro algae to save my life. The only Macro Algae that will grow is small sea grass, which I am ok with. However, the Red Sea Xenia I placed in there just keep growing and growing. So a couple weeks ago I started investigating if having a Xenia only refugium would be as efficient at removing Nitrate and Phosphate as Chaetomorpha? I believe that Xenia does indeed eat up the Nitrates as no matter how much I feed and I do feed quite a bit, my Nitrates are always at Zero. Phosphates on the other hand are just over .03ppm @ 12ppb. So I may need to start dosing Potassium Nitrate to help bring down the Phosphate. Again, patience and as Tony V said tuning it correctly. The main reason I asked the original question is that I didnt think I was the first person to embark on this type of fuge and that there had to be others that have already been and are down this road.
The current photo period is reverse of the display tank and runs from 9PM to 9AM. I haven't seen much variation in my pH and it stays fairly steady between 8.10 and 8.22.
As for additives, etc.... I use a dosing pump to add BRS 2 Part to keep dKH (8.4) and Ca (433). I also dose twice a day Zeovit Phols Extra and AALPS, which could be my my Xenia grows as fast as it does. Additionally, I feed daily one cube of American Reef HPD and one sheet of Nori every other day. This keeps my fish super fat and also helps to feed the corals.
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