Very high KH & Ca 17dkh and 520-600ppm

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

HI @Randy Holmes-Farley, hope you are well and safe. To be fair to BRS I think the idea of their video suggesting household vinegar, was only for use in an emergency situation, such as a kalk reactor or doser overdosing. The idea was to quickly counter the possible lethal effect to your livestock by temporarily countering Ph and high alkalinity, just so you had enough time to find a more sustainable source such as mixing up some new salt water batch to do a large water change.

Out of interest do you think this is viable, how long would it take for the bacteria to utilise the carbon source of the vinegar to metabolise the vinegar and produce more carbonate.?

Also I am a little confused by the other posts calculation of using 9 dKH source water and mixing it with Reef Salt from a bucket with a suggested average alkalinity of say 8 dKH would produce a water mix off 17 dKH. Would not averages apply in this situation not accumulation.? Seems a little confusing to me.

Best wishes from across the pond, stay safe.

It may be useful in an emergency. if you are actively otherwise dosing any vinegar, I expect it lasts only hours,. In a virgin tank it may last a day or two. That's mostly guessing though.

If you mix two types of water, then averages apply. it is a weighted average of the alks and the volumes.

The scenario is adding dry salt with an effective alk of 8 dKH to water with an effective alk of 9 dKH. In that case, they are additive (or, viewed alternatively, are still a weighted average, but the volume of the second part is zero).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Muriatic acid is heavier then water (goes straight to the bottom unless premixed in a separate container of water before added to the tank) the fumes displace all the oxygen over the open bottle and can harm the nose and lungs. It can cause burns as mentioned earlier.

Muriatic acid easily mixes into seawater or fresh water with any reasonable stirring.

 

[GainesvilleReef]

Carbonated water also has zero effect on alkalinity. It is one of the late Albert Thiel's incredibly stupid mistakes to claim in many publications that it did, and soem of these are unfortunately still on the internet.

No amount of adding or removing CO2 from seawater has any effect on alkalinity. It only alters pH.

Yup, I got off topic on the PH emergency response.

 

[tvan]

From the CDC:
Routes of Exposure
Inhalation

Inhalation is an important route of exposure to hydrogen chloride. Its odor and highly irritating properties generally provide adequate warning for acute, high-level exposures. However, only 50% of exposed persons can perceive hydrogen chloride's odor at the OSHA permissible exposure limit (5 ppm), and odor may not provide adequate warning in the workplace. Hydrogen chloride vapor is heavier than air and may cause asphyxiation in enclosed, poorly ventilated, or low-lying areas.
And a link:

ATSDR - Medical Management Guidelines (MMGs): Hydrogen Chloride

At room temperature, hydrogen chloride is a colorless to slightly yellow gas with a pungent odor. On exposure to air, the gas forms dense white vapors due to condensation with atmospheric moisture. The vapor is corrosive, and air concentrations above 5 ppm can cause irritation. Hydrogen chloride...

www.atsdr.cdc.gov

Please be careful with this stuff......

 

[h2so4hurts]

Yes. Read the label. Don't huff the fumes. You'll be fine...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From the CDC:
Routes of Exposure
Inhalation

Inhalation is an important route of exposure to hydrogen chloride. Its odor and highly irritating properties generally provide adequate warning for acute, high-level exposures. However, only 50% of exposed persons can perceive hydrogen chloride's odor at the OSHA permissible exposure limit (5 ppm), and odor may not provide adequate warning in the workplace. Hydrogen chloride vapor is heavier than air and may cause asphyxiation in enclosed, poorly ventilated, or low-lying areas.
And a link:

ATSDR - Medical Management Guidelines (MMGs): Hydrogen Chloride

At room temperature, hydrogen chloride is a colorless to slightly yellow gas with a pungent odor. On exposure to air, the gas forms dense white vapors due to condensation with atmospheric moisture. The vapor is corrosive, and air concentrations above 5 ppm can cause irritation. Hydrogen chloride...

www.atsdr.cdc.gov

Please be careful with this stuff......

I agree to be careful, but that data is for hydrogen chloride gas that theoretically can reach 100% of the air volume. It is not possible to attain such high concentrations off of muriatic acid. For example, the comment

"Hydrogen chloride vapor is heavier than air and may cause asphyxiation in enclosed, poorly ventilated, or low-lying areas."

That won't happen with vapor from muriatic acid.

 

[tvan]

I agree to be careful, but that data is for hydrogen chloride gas that theoretically can reach 100% of the air volume. It is not possible to attain such high concentrations off of muriatic acid. For example, the comment

"Hydrogen chloride vapor is heavier than air and may cause asphyxiation in enclosed, poorly ventilated, or low-lying areas."

That won't happen with vapor from muriatic acid.
Except in your lungs...
OP said he solved his issue. I will leave this be.

 

[h2so4hurts]

OP said he solved his issue. I will leave this be.

Good call. Plenty of us use it weekly without any problems.

 

[MightyMO]

I would invest in ro/di unit... I don't run a tank without one anymore...

 

[Tony Thompson]

It may be useful in an emergency. if you are actively otherwise dosing any vinegar, I expect it lasts only hours,. In a virgin tank it may last a day or two. That's mostly guessing though.

If you mix two types of water, then averages apply. it is a weighted average of the alks and the volumes.

The scenario is adding dry salt with an effective alk of 8 dKH to water with an effective alk of 9 dKH. In that case, they are additive (or, viewed alternatively, are still a weighted average, but the volume of the second part is zero).

Thank you @Randy Holmes-Farley, for your answer sir, you are a true gentleman, as always.

Saved me racking my brain, as its late here in North Yorkshire

Trying to get my head around GH (of tap water as normally documented from suppliers) and Alkalinity of Salt mix with regards carbonate hardness, then working on ppm rather than dKH I started to get confused, (which is quite easy for me) Much easier and quicker to ask an expert like yourself. Sorry @GainesvilleReef for throwing the curveball (or Googly as we say in English Cricket.) of pH reduction which dragged you of course.

Goodnight. or Good Morning, whichever applies.

These little faces are great, I like them. Which explains my over use. ha ha.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

"Hydrogen chloride vapor is heavier than air and may cause asphyxiation in enclosed, poorly ventilated, or low-lying areas."

That won't happen with vapor from muriatic acid.
Except in your lungs...
OP said he solved his issue. I will leave this be.

That's just not correct either.

What are you trying to claim???

Please folks, there are real dangers and their is fear mongering with false claims.

This forum will not permit false science claims to stand unchallenged.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks.

Trying to get my head around GH (of tap water as normally documented from suppliers) and Alkalinity of Salt mix with regards carbonate hardness, then working on ppm rather than dKH I started to get confused, (which is quite easy for me) Much easier and quicker to ask an expert like yourself

GH is not particularly useful for seawater since it is a strange mixture of calcium and magnesium.

This article details many of these sorts of issues:

The Units of Measure of Reefkeeping by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

from it:


GH (general hardness)

Hardness is a characteristic of water due to the presence of dissolved calcium and magnesium. Water hardness is responsible for most scale formation in pipes and water heaters (calcium and magnesium carbonates, typically), and forms insoluble solids when it reacts with soaps. Hardness is often expressed in grains per gallon, parts per million or milligrams per liter, all as calcium carbonate equivalents. It is a measure often used in freshwater aquarium systems, but not often in marine systems, where its values are very large.Seawater has a total (general) hardness of about 6.3 g/L (6,300 ppm) of calcium carbonate equivalents. These linked articles detail aspects of magnesium and calcium in seawater.

 

[tvan]

What’s my claim? People tend not to read or follow warning labels when in a hurry, tired, or distracted. And thus lose respect for something that can bite them back. Respect not fear.


False science, more human nature(myself included)….


Scenario 1: Joe Reefer needs to lower his alk. He cracks a bottle of muriatic acid, crawls under his stand, over his sump and starts to dose. He starts to cough…. Plausible?


Scenario 2: Joe Reefer lowered his alk, set the open jug down, starts to admire his reef, steps back dumps his jug….. Bent over to right it. Starts to cough…. Doesn't the vapor from muriatic acid turn to acid in the nose, throat, and lungs?


I worked in the pool industry for 8 years with muriatic acid five days a week. I trained hundreds of customers, pool cleaners, to balance their pools and use the chemicals available(labeled for pool use) responsively. I wonder why the reef industry doesn't sell bottles of muriatic acid? Could it be…. fear?


As a side note, my GH comes from a spring in the Ozark Mountains six miles away. Where does the calcium and magnesium in your boxed salt come from? Or the plastic bottles? I doubt it comes from NSW… Shower head, coffee maker really don’t really see a lot of soap, but they can sure be encrusted with calcium,

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What’s my claim?

I'm not going to try to prove muriatic acid is perfectly safe. It certainly is not. By the same token, I believe you are posting incorrect information because you are taking safety data from hydrogen chloride gas, not from hydrochloric acid. There are important differences, such as the comment about being heavier than air and settling. Pure HCL gas is much heavier than air and will settle, just like pure carbon dioxide will settle. But neither gas will settle out of an already highly mixed situation like a small amount of HCl vapor or carbon dioxide in air.

Why not take safety data from the actual product we are talking about?

As a side note, my GH comes from a spring in the Ozark Mountains six miles away. Where does the calcium and magnesium in your boxed salt come from? Or the plastic bottles? I doubt it comes from NSW… Shower head, coffee maker really don’t really see a lot of soap, but they can sure be encrusted with calcium,

I'm not sure I understand this point?

 

[tvan]

This is from the CDC link I posted above:
Synonyms for an aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride include chlorohydric acid, hydrochloric acid, and muriatic acid.

I misunderstood the GH portion of your post.
How does the high freshwater dGH compare to the dGH of the average SPS reef tank?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is from the CDC link I posted above:
Synonyms for an aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride include chlorohydric acid, hydrochloric acid, and muriatic acid.

Of course those names are true.

But the properties of hydrogen chloride gas are not identical to the properties of hydrochloric acid. The properties of hydrogen chloride gas above muriatic acid are NOT identical to those for pure hydrogen chloride gas (like settling), because the HCl in the gas above hydrochloric acid comprises only a very small fraction of the total molecules there. HCl molecules in the gas phase do not settle out of air they are dispersed in, same as every other molecular gas that is dispersed in air.

Thus folks should not be worried about the settling of HCl gas when working with commercial hydrochloric acid.

You also posted this exact sentence:

" Hydrogen chloride vapor is heavier than air and may cause asphyxiation in enclosed, poorly ventilated, or low-lying areas. "

That is the most problematic one I see in your posts. That is a true and correct property of hydrogen chloride gas at high concentration. But the concentration above hydrochloric acid is far too low to cause asphyxiation by displacement of O2, which is the point of that sentence. You should be equally concerned about water evaporating from your aquarium causing displacement of O2 and asphyxiation since it has a similar vapor pressure as the HCl above muriatic acid, and hence a similar tendency to displace O2 (both are low and not actually a concern).

That said, certainly if you breath in sufficient HCl gas in any form you can damage your lungs, and enough of that can cause chemical asphyxiation of the lungs due to lung damage. But that is not the point of the sentence you posted.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is from the CDC link I posted above:
Synonyms for an aqueous solution of hydrogen chloride include chlorohydric acid, hydrochloric acid, and muriatic acid.

I misunderstood the GH portion of your post.
How does the high freshwater dGH compare to the dGH of the average SPS reef tank?

The GH (dGH) is far, far higher in seawater than any normal fresh water.

Normal seawater has a total (general) hardness (GH) of about 6.3 g/L (6,300 ppm) of calcium carbonate equivalents.

For freshwater, GH of 300-500 ppm is considered very hard:

The Fish Keeper’s Guide to pH, GH, and KH

pH, GH, and KH are terms commonly used in water chemistry, but there is a lot of confusion surrounding them in the freshwater aquarium hobby. This practical guide for beginners explains what these parameters mean, when you should test for them, and how to raise or lower them if needed.

www.aquariumcoop.com

.

 

[tvan]

Randy, Thank you, for the information, your time and the link.
tvan