Visual QT

swervinscoot · Sep 11, 2023

Whats the thoughts on this? I don't want to subject my fish to copper for an extended period of time and have some fish that do not tolerate copper well. Display is in a fallow state and those fish that were saved have been treated with copper and fed medicated foods (metro and kana separately and bound with focus). More fish were added to the QT and I still feed medicated food to all the fish in qt as directed.

Is copper a must? I have wrasses and very small juvenile angels and tangs that I don't feel comfortable introducing to copper. Is some of the "softer" options viable (kick ich ext.)

Run a UV on the qt tank?

Qt tank runs at 80.5deg
32ppt salinity
Twice a week small water changes

vetteguy53081 · Sep 11, 2023

swervinscoot said:
Whats the thoughts on this? I don't want to subject my fish to copper for an extended period of time and have some fish that do not tolerate copper well. Display is in a fallow state and those fish that were saved have been treated with copper and fed medicated foods (metro and kana separately and bound with focus). More fish were added to the QT and I still feed medicated food to all the fish in qt as directed.

Is copper a must? I have wrasses and very small juvenile angels and tangs that I don't feel comfortable introducing to copper. Is some of the "softer" options viable (kick ich ext.)

Run a UV on the qt tank?

Qt tank runs at 80.5deg
32ppt salinity
Twice a week small water changes

Copper is safe with all. You can run at therapuetic level 2.0-2.25. Just assure you provide a deep bowl with sand for the wrasse. The desire you describe is an observation tank and although the fish you describe were quarantined, you want to assume they have something. With observation tank, you risk allowing a given disease to overtake a fish and you are then back to square one with treatment. At minimum, treat tank with reef safe ruby rally pro but understand it will address bacterial issues, flukes and velvet and not ich

EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal · Sep 11, 2023

swervinscoot said:
Whats the thoughts on this? I don't want to subject my fish to copper for an extended period of time and have some fish that do not tolerate copper well. Display is in a fallow state and those fish that were saved have been treated with copper and fed medicated foods (metro and kana separately and bound with focus). More fish were added to the QT and I still feed medicated food to all the fish in qt as directed.

Is copper a must? I have wrasses and very small juvenile angels and tangs that I don't feel comfortable introducing to copper. Is some of the "softer" options viable (kick ich ext.)

Run a UV on the qt tank?

Qt tank runs at 80.5deg
32ppt salinity
Twice a week small water changes

Many do an observational quarantine to make sure the fish does not quickly show symptoms illness and to make sure they are eating. Then they rely on the fish's natural immune system (not an acquired immunity), along with good husbandry, to manage any diseases that may show up in the main tank.

If you plan to actually treat for ich and other diseases/parasites during quarantine then don't use half measures. Either follow a full (medicated) quarantine process or don't medicate at all...

Edit: You can certainly treat one pathogen/parasite and not others, but whatever you treat, do it fully

bushdoc · Sep 12, 2023

I agree that observational ( or passive) quarantine is legitimate method, but once you see signs of disease, you have to treat all fish or you will have large mortality.
There is also tank transfer method (if you are retired or unemployed and have plenty of time).
Following methods are NOT recommended or not effective:

Run a UV on the qt tank?
Qt tank runs at 80.5deg
32ppt salinity ( it have to be much lower)
Twice a week small water changes

Jay Hemdal · Sep 12, 2023

swervinscoot said:
Whats the thoughts on this? I don't want to subject my fish to copper for an extended period of time and have some fish that do not tolerate copper well. Display is in a fallow state and those fish that were saved have been treated with copper and fed medicated foods (metro and kana separately and bound with focus). More fish were added to the QT and I still feed medicated food to all the fish in qt as directed.

Is copper a must? I have wrasses and very small juvenile angels and tangs that I don't feel comfortable introducing to copper. Is some of the "softer" options viable (kick ich ext.)

Run a UV on the qt tank?

Qt tank runs at 80.5deg
32ppt salinity
Twice a week small water changes

I disagree with the idea of observational quarantine except in a few instances with some pelagic sharks, seadragons and flashlight fish.

A proactive quarantine process is the best way to protect both the new fish and the existing animals in your tank.

What you’ve heard about copper only applies to ionic copper amine chelated copper products like coppersafe are mild and effective.

My quarantine process is here:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

swervinscoot · Sep 12, 2023

vetteguy53081 said:
Copper is safe with all. You can run at therapuetic level 2.0-2.25. Just assure you provide a deep bowl with sand for the wrasse. The desire you describe is an observation tank and although the fish you describe were quarantined, you want to assume they have something. With observation tank, you risk allowing a given disease to overtake a fish and you are then back to square one with treatment. At minimum, treat tank with reef safe ruby rally pro but understand it will address bacterial issues, flukes and velvet and not ich

Thank you all for the replies. The metro and kana is in their food for internal parasites and administered for the recommended time. The parameters in the qt listed is just so you all know where the parameters are. Small water changes was in the smaller tank, now a 40 gallon breeder I do as needed.

I have sand in there for the wrasses and I do have copper power and ruby rally at home. All fish are fed specific foods for them I am very particular with their food (hey food can makes us all happy right). Including my moorish idol eating mysis, nori and clam.

Jay Hemdal · Sep 12, 2023

swervinscoot said:
Thank you all for the replies. The metro and kana is in their food for internal parasites and administered for the recommended time. The parameters in the qt listed is just so you all know where the parameters are. Small water changes was in the smaller tank, now a 40 gallon breeder I do as needed.

I have sand in there for the wrasses and I do have copper power and ruby rally at home. All fish are fed specific foods for them I am very particular with their food (hey food can makes us all happy right). Including my moorish idol eating mysis, nori and clam.

Be very careful mixing antibiotics into the food. Don’t do it unless you calculate the dose properly. Kanamycin in particular can be toxic if overdosed. And, of course none of them are effective if underdosed.

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

This article offers information about developing medicated foods for aquarium fish

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

swervinscoot · Sep 12, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
I disagree with the idea of observational quarantine except in a few instances with some pelagic sharks, seadragons and flashlight fish.

A proactive quarantine process is the best way to protect both the new fish and the existing animals in your tank.

What you’ve heard about copper only applies to ionic copper amine chelated copper products like coppersafe are mild and effective.

My quarantine process is here:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Thank you, I do want the system to be disease free and the fish to be as healthy as possible. I will follow that process and monitor them closely (I do work full time) so as best as I can.

swervinscoot · Sep 12, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
Be very careful mixing antibiotics into the food. Don’t do it unless you calculate the dose properly. Kanamycin in particular can be toxic if overdosed. And, of course none of them are effective if underdosed.

Proper Dosing of Medicated Foods

This article offers information about developing medicated foods for aquarium fish

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

I read your post on doing that before administering it. I am no longer using any kana and almost complete with metro.

exnisstech · Sep 12, 2023

@EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal pretty much stated it as I would have. You either observe only or you treat fully, no half measures. After dealing with velvet a few years ago I fully understand the risks but have recently started observation only. I do 30 days of observation in a tank stocked with live rock. I don't have to worry about ammonia build up. Pods are avaliable as food as well as algae. The fish are more relaxed vs stressed in a sterile tank with white pvc. I watch for any visual signs of disease, make sure the fish is eating well and getting thick (fat). If after 30 days all is good they go in the display. I have a CBB in QT now that had been in there for almost a month but is just now starting to eat from the water column where it was waiting for food to fall to the rocks before eating it. I'll leave this guy in for a few more weeks to make sure he is eating well enough to be placed in with other fish and not starve.

If you want to prevent disease medicate and don't cut corners. But be sure and perform a visual observation as well to determine if the fish is ready to be placed in a tank with other fish and survive the food aggression possible bullying etc.
I think some people miss the later part and medicate, plop the fish in the display after 30 days because it has been treated and is free of disease. Not all fish are ready to be tossed into a display full of other fish just because they made it through 30 days of Copper treatment. JMO

swervinscoot · Sep 12, 2023

exnisstech said:
@EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal pretty much stated it as I would have. You either observe only or you treat fully, no half measures. After dealing with velvet a few years ago I fully understand the risks but have recently started observation only. I do 30 days of observation in a tank stocked with live rock. I don't have to worry about ammonia build up. Pods are avaliable as food as well as algae. The fish are more relaxed vs stressed in a sterile tank with white pvc. I watch for any visual signs of disease, make sure the fish is eating well and getting thick (fat). If after 30 days all is good they go in the display. I have a CBB in QT now that had been in there for almost a month but is just now starting to eat from the water column where it was waiting for food to fall to the rocks before eating it. I'll leave this guy in for a few more weeks to make sure he is eating well enough to be placed in with other fish and not starve.

If you want to prevent disease medicate and don't cut corners. But be sure and perform a visual observation as well to determine if the fish is ready to be placed in a tank with other fish and survive the food aggression possible bullying etc.
I think some people miss the later part and medicate, plop the fish in the display after 30 days because it has been treated and is free of disease. Not all fish are ready to be tossed into a display full of other fish just because they made it through 30 days of Copper treatment. JMO

Feeding the medicated foods following jays guidelines should not be a half measure as it is fully treating what it is supposed to treat. All fish are eating well and are happy.

@Jay Hemdal there are no risks with copper and “baby” fish?

exnisstech · Sep 12, 2023

swervinscoot said:
Feeding the medicated foods following jays guidelines should not be a half measure as it is fully treating what it is supposed to treat. All fish are eating well and are happy.

@Jay Hemdal there are no risks with copper and “baby” fish?

Well it actually is if you consider full treatment in QT normally includes copper treatment which I believe is outlined in Jay's articles.
I'm not saying you are doing it right or wrong as I do even less. But IMO doing less than everything is a half measure. It wasn't meant to be judgmental or ridicule. Just a term used when there is a plan in place and all steps not followed. If your plan does not include copper then I guess it isn't a half measure and apologize.

Jay Hemdal · Sep 12, 2023

swervinscoot said:
Feeding the medicated foods following jays guidelines should not be a half measure as it is fully treating what it is supposed to treat. All fish are eating well and are happy.

@Jay Hemdal there are no risks with copper and “baby” fish?

When you say "baby fish", what size? There can be an issue with copper and post larval fish, because of the skewed surface area to volume that the fish have, but for the size of fish sold in stores (even small ones) copper is not an issue.

Jay

swervinscoot · Sep 12, 2023

exnisstech said:
Well it actually is if you consider full treatment in QT normally includes copper treatment which I believe is outlined in Jay's articles.
I'm not saying you are doing it right or wrong as I do even less. But IMO doing less than everything is a half measure. It wasn't meant to be judgmental or ridicule. Just a term used when there is a plan in place and all steps not followed. If your plan does not include copper then I guess it isn't a half measure and apologize.

Did not take it that way. Just stating what has been done and making sure that those steps are not half done.

I do have a Caribbean blue angel that is about a half inch. Also a stop light parrot fish that is 3/4 of an inch. Age on both fish unknown, collected July 2nd and 3rd of this year.

Jay Hemdal · Sep 12, 2023

swervinscoot said:
Did not take it that way. Just stating what has been done and making sure that those steps are not half done.

I do have a Caribbean blue angel that is about a half inch. Also a stop light parrot fish that is 3/4 of an inch. Age on both fish unknown, collected July 2nd and 3rd of this year.

Those are both very small, I think that is even below the legal size limit for angels. Even coppersafe may be stressful on these, but then, if they go catch a protozoan disease, they’ll go downhill very fast.

Jay

swervinscoot · Sep 12, 2023

Jay Hemdal said:
Those are both very small, I think that is even below the legal size limit for angels. Even coppersafe may be stressful on these, but then, if they go catch a protozoan disease, they’ll go downhill very fast.

Jay

There may be a commercial harvest size limit as I am unsure of those regulations but no size limit for recreation. Both fish I collected following FWC guidelines. I am a huge advocate for this eco system down here and made sure I did everything correctly and in some cases better then what they allow you to do .

What to do? Move them into a separate tank? They are eating really well and the little angel even gets up and competes with the bigger fish for food (he’s got a big attitude)

Pickle_soup · Sep 12, 2023

exnisstech said:
@EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal pretty much stated it as I would have. You either observe only or you treat fully, no half measures. After dealing with velvet a few years ago I fully understand the risks but have recently started observation only. I do 30 days of observation in a tank stocked with live rock. I don't have to worry about ammonia build up. Pods are avaliable as food as well as algae. The fish are more relaxed vs stressed in a sterile tank with white pvc. I watch for any visual signs of disease, make sure the fish is eating well and getting thick (fat). If after 30 days all is good they go in the display. I have a CBB in QT now that had been in there for almost a month but is just now starting to eat from the water column where it was waiting for food to fall to the rocks before eating it. I'll leave this guy in for a few more weeks to make sure he is eating well enough to be placed in with other fish and not starve.

If you want to prevent disease medicate and don't cut corners. But be sure and perform a visual observation as well to determine if the fish is ready to be placed in a tank with other fish and survive the food aggression possible bullying etc.
I think some people miss the later part and medicate, plop the fish in the display after 30 days because it has been treated and is free of disease. Not all fish are ready to be tossed into a display full of other fish just because they made it through 30 days of Copper treatment. JMO

THIS AWESOME, TEMPORARILY ANNOYED GIRL, LADY, GETS IT!