What are the real risks of running high Nitrates and Phosphates?

[MikeTheNewbie]

I've been a reef newbie with my 190 gal mixed reef for almost 2 years now. Always trying to follow articles, videos and forums directions to try to keep 0.05 to 0.1 ppm Phosphate and 5 to 10ppm Nitrate.
While dealing with a nasty dino bloom I increased feeding and reduced water changes to drive Phosphate up between 0.2 - 0.26 and Nitrates from 20 to 30ppm.
Dinos are receeding, corals are better than ever, fish look happy and I see no algae besides the one that I wipe from the glas 2-3 times a week.

My question is. What are the real risks of high Nitrates and Phosphates and how much is really too much?

There seems to be a disconnect between what people recommend and what people actually have. Every time I check the water from the frags I buy (to try to steal the secret sauce from successful vendors and reef keepers) the results are pretty high. And I frequently hear "oh my nutrients are very high now but I try to keep them at xxx".
I have the feeling that many successful reefers run higher than recommend levels. So i want to understand what are the actual risks, what should be looking out for. Is it just risk of getting algae or will I be poisoning my dear creatures and at what level?

I hope long time successful reefers read this and can chime in. Pics of tanks and nutrient levels would be fantastic!

 

[sixty_reefer]

I've been a reef newbie with my 190 gal mixed reef for almost 2 years now. Always trying to follow articles, videos and forums directions to try to keep 0.05 to 0.1 ppm Phosphate and 5 to 10ppm Nitrate.
While dealing with a nasty dino bloom I increased feeding and reduced water changes to drive Phosphate up between 0.2 - 0.26 and Nitrates from 20 to 30ppm.
Dinos are receeding, corals are better than ever, fish look happy and I see no algae besides the one that I wipe from the glas 2-3 times a week.

My question is. What are the real risks of high Nitrates and Phosphates and how much is really too much?

There seems to be a disconnect between what people recommend and what people actually have. Every time I check the water from the frags I buy (to try to steal the secret sauce from successful vendors and reef keepers) the results are pretty high. And I frequently hear "oh my nutrients are very high now but I try to keep them at xxx".
I have the feeling that many successful reefers run higher than recommend levels. So i want to understand what are the actual risks, what should be looking out for. Is it just risk of getting algae or will I be poisoning my dear creatures and at what level?

I hope long time successful reefers read this and can chime in. Pics of tanks and nutrient levels would be fantastic!

I run my last tank above >1.9 phosphates with no bad effects on anything. I guess you can run it as high as you want it or as low.

several pictures and videos of the tank can be found on this thread

Continuous phytoplankton|rotifers reactor 24h food supply

Hi guys this is a little project I’ve been working on for a few months and now looking for your views on this subject. It all started with me getting a few non photosynthetic corals (gorgonians) and got me thinking in a way we’re I could give them a constant supply of food. The project started...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ColoredRock]

your eyes are the best test... from my exerience itis all a balance. Can your corals keep up with a high nutrient or low nutrient system.. if not the nasties come out and play(Alge) .

 

[areefer01]

I run my last tank above >1.9 phosphates with no bad effects on anything. I guess you can run it as high as you want it or as low.

several pictures and videos of the tank can be found on this thread

Continuous phytoplankton|rotifers reactor 24h food supply

Hi guys this is a little project I’ve been working on for a few months and now looking for your views on this subject. It all started with me getting a few non photosynthetic corals (gorgonians) and got me thinking in a way we’re I could give them a constant supply of food. The project started...

www.reef2reef.com

There are a lot of varying opinions on this unfortunately which leads to these sorts of posts. Not that the post is bad, it isn't, but rather the amount of energy spent by hobbyist trying to reach a number. And the ironic thing is that no one ever questions the number. There is a great MACNA presentation by Mr. Ross in 2014 that touches on this.

This isn't to poo poo nutrient levels but instead ask the question why we care about some of these numbers. Does potassium matter? What is a good level for phosphate? What is acceptable growth - we are not trying to solve world hunger. Those sorts of things.

 

[Lavey29]

Mine is a little different. When my phosphate starts to rise some of my corals close up. Each system is different and what works for one person may not work for another.

Natural sea water is .07 or so.

 

[X-37B]

If your corals are better than ever then just keep the no3 and po4 in a close range and call it good.

Lower no3 and po4, like I run, no3<3 and po4 <.1and preferably < .05 is for lower alk systems. My alk is 7.

High no3 and po4 is an indicator of low export.

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

Mine is a little different. When my phosphate starts to rise some of my corals close up. Each system is different and what works for one person may not work for another.

This is useful, can you elaborate? What type of corals? Is the change very noticeable?
More than chasing a number, I'm looking for advice on how to detect when levels are going too far.
Corals closing up sounds like a good indicator.

 

[X-37B]

This is useful, can you elaborate? What type of corals? Is the change very noticeable?
More than chasing a number, I'm looking for advice on how to detect when levels are going too far.
Corals closing up sounds like a good indicator.

In the beginning set what no3 and po4 levels you want to run, have a plan. Then focus on keeping them in range.
Higher po4 and no3 levels usually go with higher alk levels.

 

[sixty_reefer]

There are a lot of varying opinions on this unfortunately which leads to these sorts of posts. Not that the post is bad, it isn't, but rather the amount of energy spent by hobbyist trying to reach a number. And the ironic thing is that no one ever questions the number. There is a great MACNA presentation by Mr. Ross in 2014 that touches on this.

This isn't to poo poo nutrient levels but instead ask the question why we care about some of these numbers. Does potassium matter? What is a good level for phosphate? What is acceptable growth - we are not trying to solve world hunger. Those sorts of things.

My post was in answer to the op, “what’s the real risk of high nitrate and phosphates” my answer was to illustrate that corals and inverts can tolerate a low and high range of parameters, in my case was a high range of phosphates with no bad affects to the tank.

 

[Lavey29]

This is useful, can you elaborate? What type of corals? Is the change very noticeable?
More than chasing a number, I'm looking for advice on how to detect when levels are going too far.
Corals closing up sounds like a good indicator.

Most noticeable is my red goni. He seems to prefer low phosphate. He is almost closed up today with .14 phosphate measured today. Couple torches half closed too. I get it down to .05 range and everything perks back up. Strangely the yellow goni which is much larger does not get affected unless my phosphate really climbs to over .2.

 

[areefer01]

My post was in answer to the op, “what’s the real risk of high nitrate and phosphates” my answer was to illustrate that corals and inverts can tolerate a low and high range of parameters, in my case was a high range of phosphates with no bad affects to the tank.

Yep - I know. I was more or less agreeing with you in that numbers don't really matter at the end of the day. As you illustrated and again as we saw back in 2014 (and earlier).

I guess I should have replied and not quoted your post.

 

[Lavey29]

I also find balancing phosphate is not that difficult. I cut out pellets almost completely and feed frozen. I cut back coral vitamin feeding to if my level rises to much and I like running phosguard because it walks phosphate down slowly so no sudden tank changes. I also have an established refugium but don't think it has much impact on phosphate.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yep - I know. I was more or less agreeing with you in that numbers don't really matter at the end of the day. As you illustrated and again as we saw back in 2014 (and earlier).

I guess I should have replied and not quoted your post.

No my apologies it’s late here and I’ve not read it right, I understand what you said now, you got me curious, is that macna presentation available to watch online?

 

[areefer01]

No my apologies it’s late here and I’ve not read it right, I understand what you said now, you got me curious, is that macna presentation available to watch online?

Yes, it is.

 

[Lavey29]

This is useful, can you elaborate? What type of corals? Is the change very noticeable?
More than chasing a number, I'm looking for advice on how to detect when levels are going too far.
Corals closing up sounds like a good indicator.

A lot of experienced reefers don't check parameters often and just rely on their corals to tell them if something is off. Like when you see a coral really stretching to get some light energy and then you know that one needs more par or closed up some means less par maybe. Other noticeable signs are feeding responses during the day or over night depending on the corals. Are they actively searching for food, mouth open getting phytoplankton, etc... color of the corals is another indicator of good or bad parameters. Browning , bleaching from the bottom, Stn, rtn, etc... experienced reefers can see all these things before they get out of hand and make adjustments. I'm a novice but have finally found some solid tank stability after a year and everything seems to be thriving. I try to rely on visual cues as indicated above but still test weekly with everything.

 

[Sean Clark]

Could one pose the opposite question? When does low becomes too low?

 

[brahm]

My tanks have never done well with elevated N&P. Green boring algae, slow growth, unexplained acro death, poor colours, nuisance algae, etc, etc. When I shoot for 0/.03 things tend to thrive. I average around there although at times I'll drift up to 5-10ish / .07-.08

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

Yes, it is.

This is great! I just watched it and it is very useful.

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

Could one pose the opposite question? When does low becomes too low?

In my case when I got dinos

 

[MrGisonni]

Each coral seems to have different taste so to speak. My acros showed no polyp extension at 15ppm + nitrates. But my stylocoeniellas colored up beautifully. Less than 5ppm the acros look great and the stylos color fades. Its all about the sweet spot where everyone is happy or at least tolerant. Imho