What are the real risks of running high Nitrates and Phosphates?

[brahm]

This is great! I just watched it and it is very useful.

His point about trends is good the rest, eh I can say look at my tank I have low numbers, and things are growing; a lot of anecdotal points imop.

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

I found useful that he pointed out examples of really good looking tanks that have high values. It helps me have more confidence in making decisions based on observing coral reactions rather than aiming for a tight range knowing I'm not getting too far and risk harming my corals and fish.

 

[ColoredRock]

This is great! I just watched it and it is very useful.

Man we are dorks.. great video.

 

[brahm]

I found useful that he pointed out examples of really good looking tanks that have high values. It helps me have more confidence in making decisions based on observing coral reactions rather than aiming for a tight range knowing I'm not getting too far and risk harming my corals and fish.

Not to be "that guy" but much of talk was an affirmation of confirmation bias. He also talked about how his tank did really well with lower nutrients, and with alk flying all over the place. Some people have a blue thumb, others have been in the hobby so long they often overlook the day-to-day routine that is deeply engrained to focus on what is interesting to them; outlier cases that don't pertain to 99% of the folks asking for assistance. And when they talk on that newer reefers get pulled into it and end up chasing their tails doing all sorts of overly complex things (ie trying to balance N&P, and playing mad scientist with bacteria, and carbon.. etc. )

When all they really need to do for the first year or so is regular water changes, make sure the big 3 aren't trending into outer space or crashing into the ground, and keep their hands out of the tank. Get the basic husbandry down, ignore the ugly phases, and work on good routines & stability.

I personally shoot for a general range and watch the trends, and that range is mostly reset when I do a water change. Am I trending up, or am I trending down? If so I make adjustments to try to keep things even but I don't chase a specific hard number you'll chase your tail.

Richard is all about skeptical reefing, ie he's looking for interesting ways to challenge the hobby. Us mortals don't need to be cutting edge on anything. Run it down the middle, keep it stable, and let things be.

 

[MaxTremors]

In my case when I got dinos

I’m still not convinced that low nutrients are the cause of Dinos, I think it’s more likely a symptom of Dinos. Back when everyone used real live rock, Dinos were virtually unheard of, regardless of nutrient levels (the only time I remember seeing them back in the day was in a tank using lava rock). I think the issue is more likely to be the use of dry rock (open real estate) and bacterial imbalance/lack of diversity. Low nutrients may have something to do with it, I don’t think we know enough to discount it as a cause, but I’m not convinced that it is the cause either. I think it’s likely a confluence of factors, but dry rock and bacterial lack of balance/diversity seems far more plausible to me.

 

[brahm]

I’m still not convinced that low nutrients are the cause of Dinos, I think it’s more likely a symptom of Dinos. Back when everyone used real live rock, Dinos were virtually unheard of, regardless of nutrient levels (the only time I remember seeing them back in the day was in a tank using lava rock). I think the issue is more likely to be the use of dry rock (open real estate) and bacterial imbalance/lack of diversity. Low nutrients may have something to do with it, I don’t think we know enough to discount it as a cause, but I’m not convinced that it is the cause either. I think it’s likely a confluence of factors, but dry rock and bacterial lack of balance/diversity seems far more plausible to me.

Agreed even then I used to start my tanks with dead rock and never had Dino’s and would shoot for 0/0. Not sure what’s changed..

 

[undermind]

Agreed even then I used to start my tanks with dead rock and never had Dino’s and would shoot for 0/0. Not sure what’s changed..

For every thread that associates dead dry rock with dinos, there's always one or two people that say "but I started with dry rock and never got dinos".

I think in the end that tanks that never had dinos managed to establish a good bacterial foundation and healthy microbiome one way or another, even if it was by way of going crazy putting way too many frags in a new tank.

I agree that low nutrients alone do not cause dinos. But completely bottoming out nitrate and phosphate tend to draw them in like zombies to a boombox. And keeping them low just doesn't maintain a good environment for things that are going to outcompete them.

Everybody that's posted in this thread has made some really great points. And @MikeTheNewbie asked some excellent questions to kick things off. What a great observation that people love to pass along the obligatory nitrate/phosphate values but many of the notable tanks run quite high nutrients.

I'm also generally wary of referring to ranges or effects of going too high or low. I know that certain things happen in my tank at certain nutrient thresholds that require completely different values to happen in other people's tanks.

I think that developing a relationship with your tank tends to answer most of the questions posed in the beginning of this thread. But it takes time with every tank, usually a few years. But you're clearly asking all the right questions so I expect you'll have a pulse on that stuff quickly.

 

[Reef and Dive]

IMHO high nutrients is not a battle for corals, but a battle against nuisance algae. A mature tank with heavy coral load can surely manage pretty high nutrients. For a new immature tank I think it is a very bad idea.

That said, it has been scientifically demonstrated that calcification gets slowed down and coral skeleton is more fragile under high nutrient conditions.

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

I’m still not convinced that low nutrients are the cause of Dinos, I think it’s more likely a symptom of Dinos. Back when everyone used real live rock, Dinos were virtually unheard of, regardless of nutrient levels (the only time I remember seeing them back in the day was in a tank using lava rock). I think the issue is more likely to be the use of dry rock (open real estate) and bacterial imbalance/lack of diversity. Low nutrients may have something to do with it, I don’t think we know enough to discount it as a cause, but I’m not convinced that it is the cause either. I think it’s likely a confluence of factors, but dry rock and bacterial lack of balance/diversity seems far more plausible to me.

Certainly. I should have said low nutrients and dead/dry rock. I did a DNA test a few weeks before the dinos hit hard and the biodiversity in my tank was awful so I completely agree that it was a combination or a cause/effect. The likely root cause was my obsession of avoiding pests and diseases and it's byproduct of not having good bacteria diversity but that is a lesson for a different thread hehe.
Right now I'm trying to better understand what happens / what to expect when Nitrates and Phosphates get too high so I can stop chasing numbers/ranges and rely on observation instead.
Thanks everyone for the valuable replies.

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

IMHO high nutrients is not a battle for corals, but a battle against nuisance algae. A mature tank with heavy coral load can surely manage pretty high nutrients. For a new immature tank I think it is a very bad idea.

That said, it has been scientifically demonstrated that calcification gets slowed down and coral skeleton is more fragile under high nutrient conditions.

So things to watch out for are: nuisance algae, slower coral growth and fragile skeleton.
I understand that sticks / SPS are more susceptible and I read in this thread that some gorgonians might be susceptible too
Thanks!
Any other effects or things to look out for?

 

[brahm]

For every thread that associates dead dry rock with dinos, there's always one or two people that say "but I started with dry rock and never got dinos".

I think in the end that tanks that never had dinos managed to establish a good bacterial foundation and healthy microbiome one way or another, even if it was by way of going crazy putting way too many frags in a new tank.

I agree that low nutrients alone do not cause dinos. But completely bottoming out nitrate and phosphate tend to draw them in like zombies to a boombox. And keeping them low just doesn't maintain a good environment for things that are going to outcompete them.

Everybody that's posted in this thread has made some really great points. And @MikeTheNewbie asked some excellent questions to kick things off. What a great observation that people love to pass along the obligatory nitrate/phosphate values but many of the notable tanks run quite high nutrients.

I'm also generally wary of referring to ranges or effects of going too high or low. I know that certain things happen in my tank at certain nutrient thresholds that require completely different values to happen in other people's tanks.

I think that developing a relationship with your tank tends to answer most of the questions posed in the beginning of this thread. But it takes time with every tank, usually a few years. But you're clearly asking all the right questions so I expect you'll have a pulse on that stuff quickly.

I’ve setup enough tanks to at least be considered 10-20 people

when it comes to Dinos we’re grasping at straws 20 different causes 15 different solutions, tbh I question if they are even an issue and more the result of a problem than the cause.

If there is one thing I see in common when it comes to Dinos is a lot of muckery and a heavy handed approach to reefing. Somewhere down the road we switched from a general skepticism of mystery solve everything solutions being ‘sold’ to us to the norm being let’s play chemistry time with our tanks & everything is a pest vs simply having a little patients, letting things run it’s course, and falling back to the basics - water changes and good husbandry.

High nutrients should not (even very clearly pointed out in the video) be the target. Don’t focus on the outliers, you’ll only make reefing more difficult for yourself. When you’re tank gets to the level Richard’s did or mine have, growth becomes a problem; unless you don’t have issue throwing corals out or have the time to constantly distribute frags or upgrade your systems.

 

[MIke Wood]

I’ve setup enough tanks to at least be considered 10-20 people

when it comes to Dinos we’re grasping at straws 20 different causes 15 different solutions, tbh I question if they are even an issue and more the result of a problem than the cause.

If there is one thing I see in common when it comes to Dinos is a lot of muckery and a heavy handed approach to reefing. Somewhere down the road we switched from a general skepticism of mystery solve everything solutions being ‘sold’ to us to the norm being let’s play chemistry time with our tanks & everything is a pest vs simply having a little patients, letting things run it’s course, and falling back to the basics - water changes and good husbandry.

High nutrients should not (even very clearly pointed out in the video) be the target. Don’t focus on the outliers, you’ll only make reefing more difficult for yourself. When you’re tank gets to the level Richard’s did or mine have, growth becomes a problem; unless you don’t have issue throwing corals out or have the time to constantly distribute frags or upgrade your systems.

I think this happened when the common hobbyist started to look at their tanks as money makers instead of just a hobby. finding the fastest way to get growth so they can cut and sell. i will admit that i have falling into this N/P scene. mainly because i think my tank has matured a great amount and that with my weekly water changes and skimming i was striping the tank and starving the corals. they were growing but some colors were blah, whereas, others looked great. i aim to keep mine in a ratio of 1:100 but the tank just uses so much po4 up its nearly impossible to do unless i start dosing po4 daily. im attempting to feed a lot. but i have come up with a similar question as the OP. Im more or less worried the rock might start absorbing the nutrients and when it reaches the point that it cant absorb anymore it will start to leach them.

 

[brahm]

I think this happened when the common hobbyist started to look at their tanks as money makers instead of just a hobby. finding the fastest way to get growth so they can cut and sell. i will admit that i have falling into this N/P scene. mainly because i think my tank has matured a great amount and that with my weekly water changes and skimming i was striping the tank and starving the corals. they were growing but some colors were blah, whereas, others looked great. i aim to keep mine in a ratio of 1:100 but the tank just uses so much po4 up its nearly impossible to do unless i start dosing po4 daily. im attempting to feed a lot. but i have come up with a similar question as the OP. Im more or less worried the rock might start absorbing the nutrients and when it reaches the point that it cant absorb anymore it will start to leach them.

I never found myself needing to dose n/p (tried it once to see what the hype was). If things are going pale I feed a little more, or feed more variety like amino acids or some sort of coral food, but even running 0/0 things don't typically go pale unless you during some sort of carbon dosing/or another extreme method for stripping your tank. But a normal tank, with a skimmer, some water changes a decent bioload, that is well fed shouldn't be running into that issue.

Now I'm not saying 0/0 is the end all be all. I'm happy if I trend between 0-5 0/.03-0.05 but this tank (and my current tank) mostly run at 0/0 and my corals are vibrant and colorful (Wish I could have seen the old tank under LED )

and growth became more problematic than desirable - literally, corals growing out of the water, frags that soon became mini-colonies covering the bottom, frag tanks totally filled up as well. I live in a remote area and couldn't give things away quickly enough.

My current system runs under the same methodology but with all the new fancy gear. It's a little over a year and a half, almost all the SPS has grown from "modern sized" frags (aka really small ) I'm pretty happy with the growth considering it is a true mixed reef and chemical warfare can't be helping, nor the starting size of most of the pieces as it takes a lot longer to go from .25" to .5" then 1" to 2". Colorwise my LED photography skills are lacking but I can assure you things are as vibrant in person as any tank I've ever kept. This summer I'm expecting a few of the faster growers to hit critical mass and growth to expedite. I've already started hacking away at some of the torts, red dragon, anacropora, and montipora to make sure the slower growers have a chance to fill out.

To answer your questions and OP's I'd avoid excess nutrients. For me, I've always done best running things close to NSW with some wiggle room on the top/bottom for testing error. If you run an extreme on either end you run the risk of crossing that line and crashing your tank.

PS we always sold corals for $$$ salt, electricity, and fancy new blue sticks ain't cheap

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m still not convinced that low nutrients are the cause of Dinos, I think it’s more likely a symptom of Dinos.

I do not believe that. It is clear to me that low nutrients is a contributing risk for dinos (likely to to reduce competition for space) and that adding nutrients is a decent way to help get rid of dinos once you get them.

That said, I also agree that surfaces that are readily available for dino colonization (such as the dry rock) is also a risk factor.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

but i have come up with a similar question as the OP. Im more or less worried the rock might start absorbing the nutrients and when it reaches the point that it cant absorb anymore it will start to leach them.

That's not a thing.

Rocks absorb phosphate in proportion to the amount of phosphate in the water. More in the water means more on the rock.

If you maintain any fixed phosphate level forever, rocks will not become a significant source.

They are only a source if you try to lower phosphate in the water below what they have been equilibrated with. They are a net sink when they have less than at equilibrium and a net source when they have more.

 

[MIke Wood]

That's not a thing.

Rocks absorb phosphate in proportion to the amount of phosphate in the water. More in the water means more on the rock.

If you maintain any fixed phosphate level forever, rocks will not become a significant source.

They are only a source if you try to lower phosphate in the water below what they have been equilibrated with. They are a net sink when they have less than at equilibrium and a net source when they have more.

but say you dose po4. how are you to tell if your corals are absorbing it or your rock? for me i have noticed that my corals do look more colorful. and maybe a little bit more growth. but i dont think i had issues with growth when i ran my tank 0/0. or is what your saying is the rock wont absorb anything unless there is an abundance of it. my thinking is- if there is po4 in the water column then there is an excess amount.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

but say you dose po4. how are you to tell if your corals are absorbing it or your rock? for me i have noticed that my corals do look more colorful. and maybe a little bit more growth. but i dont think i had issues with growth when i ran my tank 0/0. or is what your saying is the rock wont absorb anything unless there is an abundance of it. my thinking is- if there is po4 in the water column then there is an excess amount.

It makes no difference where it is going, if you want to raise it, both must happen.

 

[ColoredRock]

Algae needs to grow some place, what better then something with nooks and crannies where there is no competition... I say that about coralline , GHA, Dinos, etc....

 

[MIke Wood]

It makes no difference where it is going, if you want to raise it, both must happen.

I read through an older thread that you had commented on about it having to bind to the rock and then it will either bind or leach to maintain the balance. So my tank is a little over 2 years old now. My po4 seems to stay around .01ppm and i adjusted my no3 to 5ppm. Do you think thats the po4 my tank is equalized at? Seems that my corals do better with no3 around 5. Should I continue to strive for a higher po4 level, or since I'm stable at .01 keep rocking out at that level. I have zero algae issues in my tank other than scraping my glass very frequently. Seems like it needs it daily

 

[ColoredRock]

Algae needs to grow some place, what better then something with nooks and crannies where there is no competition... I say that about coralline , GHA, Dinos, etc....

I cant believe I am quoting myself.. but live rock or establish rock has an upper hand.