What are the real risks of running high Nitrates and Phosphates?

[bruno3047]

We have to differentiate between coral that has normal bright solid coloration (along with a full compliment of zooxanthellae) and coral that produces this uber-bright coloration highlighted in the video.

In the first scenario, the coral is healthy and can maintain good coloration indefinitely as long as conditions remain to it's liking and we don't push the lighting intensity beyond what it can properly cope with. But in the second scenario, the coral is producing very bright protective pigmentation in a last ditch effort to create a protective environment for zooxnthellae that try to repopulate (hopefully before the coral runs out of it's limited energy reserves).

I don’t think the lighting issue applies to what these divers discovered. What they discovered is that some coral (in this case, acropora) that is in it’s death throes will display enhanced coloration. We think this coral displaying exceptionally pretty colors must be a good thing because we like it and it makes us feel good. But in reality, as I suspected, it’s actually might be the coral crying for help. Sometimes people are too simplistic for their own good and the good of the creatures which we endeavor to collect and grow . Which brings me back to my initial observation. In the wild, on the reef, the appearance of any nitrates or phosphates are considered pollution and deadly. I don’t see how or why that should change in our tanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We think a coral displaying exceptionally pretty colors must be a good thing because we like it and it makes us feel good. But in reality, as I suspected, it’s actually might be the coral crying for help.

I've never thought that. The zeovit method is a case in point where it seems the method, or at least some aspects of it, are intended to stress corals to get improved coloration.

 

[Nano sapiens]

I don’t think the lighting issue applies to what these divers discovered. What they discovered is that some coral (in this case, acropora) that is in it’s death throes will display enhanced coloration. We think this coral displaying exceptionally pretty colors must be a good thing because we like it and it makes us feel good. But in reality, as I suspected, it’s actually might be the coral crying for help. Sometimes people are too simplistic for their own good and the good of the creatures which we endeavor to collect and grow . Which brings me back to my initial observation. In the wild, on the reef, the appearance of any nitrates or phosphates are considered pollution and deadly. I don’t see how or why that should change in our tanks.

If not protecting something from high light levels, then what would cause a severely stressed coral to waste it's valuable energy reserves on producing vivid pigmentation? From what I have read, the theory is that the corals are producing these vividly colored pigments to reflect/protect against the naturally intense light in their environment so that newly settled zooxanthellae (which may be the same or a different clade) can quickly proliferate in their new home).

It seems likely that the same mechanism of intense vivid pigmentation production is underway to one degree of another when aquarists provide too much lighting intensity for too long. The coral is trying to protect/regulate it's zooxanthellae population and itself (if unsuccessful, bleaching occurs as the coral expels it's zooxanthellae in order to survive). But there is perhaps a fine line between between 'coloring up' sps to their full potential and what's described above. A seasoned and successful SPS reef keeper can keep acropora in a state of rich/vibrant coloration for extended periods of time (often many years) as long as the proper conditions are maintained.

As for phosphate and nitrate, it is the combined total of what is in the water column for assimilation plus what is provided by other sources (bacteria, plankton, etc.) that is critical IMO. The typical reef aquarium compensates for the reduction in these 'other sources' (compared to a wild reef) providing the needed nutrients by having an increase in phosphate and nitrate (up to a point as too much of a good thing can be detrimental).

IMO/IME, the best chance for long term coral success is by following the old saying 'all things in moderation'. 'Pushing the boundaries' often has severe consequences and the aquarist needs to be aware and except this if he/she pursues this path.

 

[damsels are not mean]

I think people like to blame nutrients for things because they can be tested and thus give us a sense of control which feels good.

Supposedly really high phosphate can slow or even pause calcification but it's not clear exactly how high it'd have to be for that as I know some very high phosphate tanks with a fine amount of calcification in them. There is a logical reason to think that it would cause this, which can (and has been) explained by people who know more than me about chemistry. But perhaps the biology of these animals is more than meets the eye there.

Nitrates are supposedly toxic at high levels but I have to say I have not experienced that myself. In a tank I neglected for years, nitrate was measuring >200 and despite this the fish, inverts, corals (at that point just softies to be fair) were all doing fine. Before people say they had somehow adapted to high levels, I added a shrimp, multiple fish, and several frags including sps when it was still near 200 and none seemed to care about high nitrates. The shrimp grew back a claw he lost in shipping so it clearly wasn't toxic enough to cause him serious stress. The acropora even showed good polyp extension and started growing a bit, then stalled later and is starting to spread its base now.

There are a few scientific studies done on this but they seem to contradict and are very small scale. Too small scale to really be useful to us IMO.

 

[jda]

I agree that Zeo, among many other methods, can often stress corals into different colors. In ZEO case, at least when I knew a lot about it, they used heavy metals to decrease zoox for some coloration and contrast. ZEO also imports a massive amount of things. Many that I knew that used ZEO were also expert reefers that could have success with nearly anything. Other methods, like running nitrate and phosphate 10-1000 times higher than NSW are not really that different - darker more rich colors with excess zoox.

I have .1 nitrate and 1-3 ppb on phosphate and have no dinos. For me, low nitrate and phosphate is a recipe for dinos in tanks without established substrate, rock, etc. which is the real root cause and not the nitrate and phosphate numbers.

 

[131696]

A strong assertion that I believe is wrong and has zero supporting evidence.

You made the claim, what is the basis? Someone told you this at a convention?

Lots of people smoke and do not die of lung cancer. Does that mean smoking is not a risk factor for lung cancer? Of course not. That's what it means to be a risk factor.

Buddy listen to chumminghamreef with reefdudes he even mentions it YouTube it and learn they tested it out on all oceans of the world it all 1to 10 ratio ,and coral euphoria has no nutrients in his tank no algae either look at his tank awesome , and chumming has 2 phosphates and 40 nitrates in his no algae why ? There's balance the right maintenance rountine and very stable . They even talk on this site low nutrient's and no algae of no kind ,your just hard head that's all. Get everything stable with right ratio and your set remember it's the water that's matters and stop putting chemicals in tank that causes Dino's also.

 

[131696]

IMO, there's no evidence to support that assertion.

IMO, nutrient ratios are the run away trendy thing in reefing that is truly of no value with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

IMO, if you have 0.0000000001 ppm phosphate and 0.000000001 ppm nitrate, you are at risk for dinos, despite having your perfect ratio.

Why is everything here stated with IMO before it? Because there's no testing of any kind to say what is true or not with respect to risk factors for dinos. Anyone claiming otherwise either has secret info, or is stretching the available facts.

They do have evidance scientists tested all oceans and it all the same ratio 1to 10 look it up and read Get up to date on things today and forget about what you learned in past ,your past still works but new things and report are in learn them read them study them things change in hobby learn new way, now we have grafted sps acropora corals did you know this?

 

[131696]

I agree that Zeo, among many other methods, can often stress corals into different colors. In ZEO case, at least when I knew a lot about it, they used heavy metals to decrease zoox for some coloration and contrast. ZEO also imports a massive amount of things. Many that I knew that used ZEO were also expert reefers that could have success with nearly anything. Other methods, like running nitrate and phosphate 10-1000 times higher than NSW are not really that different - darker more rich colors with excess zoox.

I have .1 nitrate and 1-3 ppb on phosphate and have no dinos. For me, low nitrate and phosphate is a recipe for dinos in tanks without established substrate, rock, etc. which is the real root cause and not the nitrate and phosphate numbers.

Yea mr Randy is old School what they used to blame it on back then but now we know the reason and he still don't want to admit it. His problem he dont want to read and study more and up to date with science in todays hobby.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Buddy listen to chumminghamreef with reefdudes he even mentions it YouTube it and learn they tested it out on all oceans of the world it all 1to 10 ratio ,and coral euphoria has no nutrients in his tank no algae either look at his tank awesome , and chumming has 2 phosphates and 40 nitrates in his no algae why ? There's balance the right maintenance rountine and very stable . They even talk on this site low nutrient's and no algae of no kind ,your just hard head that's all. Get everything stable with right ratio and your set remember it's the water that's matters and stop putting chemicals in tank that causes Dino's also.

They do have evidance scientists tested all oceans and it all the same ratio 1to 10 look it up and read Get up to date on things today and forget about what you learned in past ,your past still works but new things and report are in learn them read them study them things change in hobby learn new way, now we have grafted sps acropora corals did you know this?

Yea mr Randy is old School what they used to blame it on back then but now we know the reason and he still don't want to admit it. His problem he dont want to read and study more and up to date with science in todays hobby.

There’s so many wrong things with this statements that am not even sure what they mean. There’s definitely no need to be rude though

 

[Garf]

Buddy listen to chumminghamreef with reefdudes he even mentions it YouTube it and learn they tested it out on all oceans of the world it all 1to 10 ratio ,and coral euphoria has no nutrients in his tank no algae either look at his tank awesome , and chumming has 2 phosphates and 40 nitrates in his no algae why ? There's balance the right maintenance rountine and very stable . They even talk on this site low nutrient's and no algae of no kind ,your just hard head that's all. Get everything stable with right ratio and your set remember it's the water that's matters and stop putting chemicals in tank that causes Dino's also.

My old tank had up to 1 ppm phos, and 60 ppm nitrate, zero algae in the display. Now in the sump, with a diy algae scrubber, that’s a whole different story. Nowt to do with ratios in my tank.

 

[Garf]

They do have evidance scientists tested all oceans and it all the same ratio 1to 10 look it up and read Get up to date on things today and forget about what you learned in past ,your past still works but new things and report are in learn them read them study them things change in hobby learn new way, now we have grafted sps acropora corals did you know this?

On another note I induced what appeared to be a Dino bloom in the same sump by feeding the algae scrubber excess CO2, the tank was 9 years old at the time. Ratios? Lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Buddy listen to chumminghamreef with reefdudes he even mentions it YouTube it and learn they tested it out on all oceans of the world it all 1to 10 ratio ,and coral euphoria has no nutrients in his tank no algae either look at his tank awesome , and chumming has 2 phosphates and 40 nitrates in his no algae why ? There's balance the right maintenance rountine and very stable . They even talk on this site low nutrient's and no algae of no kind ,your just hard head that's all. Get everything stable with right ratio and your set remember it's the water that's matters and stop putting chemicals in tank that causes Dino's also.

An awesome tank is NOT EVER a justification for a nonsensical claim about why it is awesome. You have been misled by false information.

I am very knowledgeable of what the Redifeld ratio is and how scientists use it. Many reefers misunderstand and misuse it.

By itself IT IS NOT EVER a suitable way to set target values for nutrients in a reef tank.

Do you really think that 0.00000000001 ppm phosphate and 0.00000000001 ppm nitrate is a good nutrient situation for a reef tank? Why not? It fits your ratio

What about 500 ppm phosphate and 5,000 ppm nitrate. perfect ratio!

Let's me restate your premise with a slight variation to make it sensible:

Your statement:

"Get everything stable with right ratio and your set remember it's the water that's matters"

Just a little change makes it far more sensible:

"Get everything stable with right values and your set remember it's the water that's matters"

IMO, it makes more sense to focus on actual values, such as 2-10 ppm nitrate and 0.02 to 0.1 ppm phosphate. If you want to adjust those ranges, that's perfectly reasonable, And if you want to add a ratio on top of those ranges, that's also fine, but there's no strong data to support that that I have seen. But a ratio without range limitations is totally nonsensical.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yea mr Randy is old School what they used to blame it on back then but now we know the reason and he still don't want to admit it. His problem he dont want to read and study more and up to date with science in todays hobby.

You watch me 24/7 to know what I read?

I think you also grossly mischaracterize my statements. I do not claim that high nutrients cause algae problems, yet it seems like that is one of your main criticisms of me. If you want to criticize something I said, that's great and I welcome it. But I request that you show exactly what I said that you think is wrong that you are criticizing.

The only way I am old school is requiring evidence for claims that on their face do not make sense. That seems to not be the modern way. Society has moved on to the idea that if you make a claim often enough, folks will begin to believe it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

now we have grafted sps acropora corals did you know this?

Enjoy your ignorant crusade to prove that I somehow am a reef dinosaur.

 

[Garf]

Last time I saw reef dudes he said he made sure his ratio was more than 100:1. Where did that number come from? Lol. It’s probably one of those ratios that are extremely important but also extremely variable, depending upon the test results you get from your tank

 

[homer1475]

You didn't know Randy, that any of us that have been at this a while and do not subscribed to "reef fantasy" spouted on youtube as gospel are old dinosaurs?

if we don't dump numerous bottles of bacteria to our tanks daily or even weekly, we are promoting "old school" ways of reefing that do not work?

Come on you old dinosaur subscribe to the new way of thinking. Science is just old codgers sitting around saying that everything on the internet is just wrong. Come on now you old dinosaur, don't you know everything on the internet is the truth and real?

When there is nothing to backup these claims, they call us the dinosaurs.

 

[GarrettT]

po4 of 1-3 ppb is not growth limiting, IME. As for dinos, I have none at these levels.

how does one obtain a stable po4 between 1-3ppb? My po4 easily drops from 3ppb to 0ppb within 24hours in a mature tank (1.5yrs). Every time I try to do this, dinos come back. Maybe it’s from dosing Kalk? Just wondering if maintaining a 1-3ppb level is obtainable without dosing and continuous checking every other day.

 

[A Young Reefer]

Buddy listen to chumminghamreef with reefdudes he even mentions it YouTube it and learn they tested it out on all oceans of the world it all 1to 10 ratio ,and coral euphoria has no nutrients in his tank no algae either look at his tank awesome , and chumming has 2 phosphates and 40 nitrates in his no algae why ? There's balance the right maintenance rountine and very stable . They even talk on this site low nutrient's and no algae of no kind ,your just hard head that's all. Get everything stable with right ratio and your set remember it's the water that's matters and stop putting chemicals in tank that causes Dino's also.

buddy you need to do the listening, first of all you need to acknowledge who you are talking to, Dr.Randy is not some random guy watching youtube videos (like you no offence) and getting all of his claims and supporting his claims from these videos. what's old school in his methods?
are you telling me that the oceans are also algae free since they have the perfect ratio of yours?
regarding your zero nutrients dilemma I run zero nutrients and have no dinos. but it isn't because there are no nutrients. I run the heavy in heavy out method. I feed 3 times a day, my fish, corals and tank inhabitants consume it. And whatever is left gets picked up by my filtration (I have an oversized skimmer). once you get a proper reference or research to support your claims I would consider looking into them.

 

[djf91]

I think it’s been proven you can get away with a large range of Nitrate and Phosphate levels. Just depends on the system and all of the other variables.

I think I remember Randy writing in an article about ocean N and P being close to undetectable.

 

[jda]

how does one obtain a stable po4 between 1-3ppb? My po4 easily drops from 3ppb to 0ppb within 24hours in a mature tank (1.5yrs). Every time I try to do this, dinos come back. Maybe it’s from dosing Kalk? Just wondering if maintaining a 1-3ppb level is obtainable without dosing and continuous checking every other day.

Aragonite will bind it and act like a buffer. This can take a while to stabilize in a new tank and is harder in a tank without sand. It is quite hard for mine to get much lower or higher, except for slowly. I got a gaggle of anthias and had to feed them too much at first and my po4 got up to like 6-7 ppb over a 4-6 weeks. This kinda sucked and my coralline stopped putting out new spots as quickly, although the established stuff did seem to grow just as fast. Those savages took each other out and now I only have one or two of them, so with the feedings back down, then chaeto and my normal methods took twice as long to get it back down to 1-3 ppb again. Most of my smoothies slowed down new growth with just the slight rise in po4, but these are corals that many cannot keep or get to grow very well at all - these are known, at least to acropora experts, to need NSW type of residual N and P. In the end, the sand bound up and buffered a lot of the po4 from the extra food which accounted for the slower rise, but also for the slower drop when the feedings quit as the reservoir had to be drained.

Dinos was a several-week thing when people started with live rock and/or sand. Now it is a years-long thing. People kept lower no3 and po4 back then and just had the typical ugly phase that came and went quickly. The issue is sterile tanks with plenty of places for dinos to take hold - this is real, so in these tanks, higher N and P to grow-limit them might be smart.

Remember that available nitrogen is better than residual nitrate for nearly all corals. Just a trace of po4 is enough for corals. You might want some excessive residual no3 or po4 for other reasons, like macroalgae or to keep some dinos or cyano at bay, but a steady supply of fish waste and a trace of po4 is all that the corals need.