What are the root causes of Cyano?

[Jeferson Stutz]

This subject has been a mine field for 15 years or more, hence why these threads are constantly started, the trouble is there is no data on cyano and ratios, simply reading through this thread in its entirety will tell you it’s not as simple as change the ratios to this and cyano disappears... if that really worked these threads would of stopped years ago. The experiments Dan, Taricha and the guys are trying hopefully will help shed some light on this very frustrating but very important bacteria and what triggers it from being beneficial to being a pita... always good to discuss differing views and challenge each other

Agree, discuss with diferentt point of views take us from the comfort zone.

 

[Dan_P]

Here are early results from “Cyano Study 10. Effect of Organics”. Like @taricha, I wanted to see if organic matter played a role in cyanobacteria mat formation.

I am growing a Spirulina species where as Taricha is culturing an Oscillatoria species. We are not sure yet whether this accounts for some mat forming differences we have seen. For example, my Spirulina species is reluctant to grow on sand. What is common though is that culturing cyanobacteria films and mats requires high a level of nutrients, far higher than seen in aquaria.

In the picture below are two identical dishes containing the same amount of rinsed aquarium sand that had been illuminated 8 days in the same 1 L of aquarium water without added nutrients (PO4 0.2 ppm, NO3 6 ppm). The dish on the right received two 10 mg doses of powdered fish flake food on day one and three.

As is usual with my Spirulina species, very little growth was seen on the sand of the unfed dish (left). The very top layer of sand grains adhered together to form a thin, colorless mat that trapped gas bubbles and floated above the sand bed. The black marks on the sand are gas bubbles pushing through the sand mat, Under the microscope, a variety of organisms were growing between the sand grains and probably “gluing” the grains together.

The dish on the right received the pulverized fish flakes. The dark areas are Spirulina mats. The reddish brown spots on the bottom right are colonies of microorganisms. Gas bubbles were not observed. This is the first time I managed to grow Spirulina on sand and to grow a substantial colony with low nitrate and phosphate levels. I am pretty sure that @brandon429 would have predicted that the presence of organic matter in a sand bed would result in mats on the sand.

I need to repeat this experiment and then try to determine whether organic matter is more important than nitrate and phosphate in the water for supporting cyanobacteria mat formation.

 

[brandon429]

I enjoy reading the levels of control you both are able to apply to this research it’s the first I’ve seen so directed at the aquarium vs studies of natural expression in a lake or ocean, what a new frontier for you to be working on. I enjoy reading every detail

 

[Dan_P]

It has been awhile since I reported any results, but work continues. We have some ideas about cyanobacteria blooms that we are testing and retesting.

In a culture of filamentous cyanobacteria that had run its course and was about to be disposed, I came across a curious structure. Donut shaped objects 25-50 microns in diameter (first photo) which actually became coils over time (second photo, higher magnification). The probable explanation is this particular species can self shade itself by coiling up when light is too intense or nutrients too low.

 

[drawman]

Happy to see this thread. I have a very interesting case of a tenacious "red wine" described by @Hans-Werner variant of cyano that seems very similar to what @Frogger has as well. I know exactly how this variant was introduced from a specific frag plug. @Lasse I will tag you for your insight here as well.

This is a high flow (RSR 250 with a Tunze Stream, MP40, and Gyre XF130) tank that is barebottom. Pumps are cleaned monthly. This cyano will form very dense mats and tends to dominate one piece of tonga rock as well as plastic or newly dead coral skeletons. NO3 is about 5ppm and PO4 does not read on a Hanna ULR phosphorus checker. I run a solid skimmer but I do not dose carbon, grow macroalgae, etc.

I've been keeping reef tanks since 2004 so this is not my first rodeo but this strain has become very aggressive. It seems that this cyano truly lacks competitors. Coralline algae is not really growing which is odd to me. I have a solid clean up crew. The glass will get a weekly coat of film algae but there isn't anything else that proliferates.

I dosed PO4 (Brightwell NeoPhos) for a short period of time but then debated if the cyano is just sucking up all of the PO4 fueling the problem. I talked with Dr. Tim and his main takeaway was putting skimmers on a timer to allow other bacteria to establish. I am very open to suggestions and will try to look at my strain under a scope today.

 

[brandon429]

I work from the angle of rip cleaners: attaining zero detritus condition to battle cyano, and we do pretty well with that approach in our sand rinse thread. not 100%, frogger attained this and still had it

we'd like to know about organic loading that testing wont reveal: if we reach in and grab sand deep and drop it, would it cloud massively and if we grab any random rock especially the selected ones, and swish them mid tank, will they have castings?

our lack of comparable flow and export in tanks tends to accumulate these items where they cant pass disturbance testing, and we get to see all that cyano feed floating off using no scopes, no test kits.

curious if your power strain is that strong in a very clean system or is this average clean, where the sand at least w certainly not pass a full depth drop test?

 

[drawman]

I work from the angle of rip cleaners: attaining zero detritus condition to battle cyano, and we do pretty well with that approach in our sand rinse thread. not 100%, frogger attained this and still had it

we'd like to know about organic loading that testing wont reveal: if we reach in and grab sand deep and drop it, would it cloud massively and if we grab any random rock especially the selected ones, and swish them mid tank, will they have castings?

our lack of comparable flow and export in tanks tends to accumulate these items where they cant pass disturbance testing, and we get to see all that cyano feed floating off using no scopes, no test kits.

curious if your power strain is that strong in a very clean system or is this average clean, where the sand at least w certainly not pass a full depth drop test?

Interestingly my tank is barebottom so the only real place detritus could be collecting is on the rocks. It is a very "open" aquascape consisting of 3 separate rock with a lot of negative space. I also run mesh filter socks and rinse them weekly. Is the tank high in DOCs, possibly...

Once the mats get thick they are self expanding and likely accumulating debris. I siphon them weekly as well.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I work from the angle of rip cleaners: attaining zero detritus condition to battle cyano, and we do pretty well with that approach in our sand rinse thread. not 100%, frogger attained this and still had it

How detritus may influence cyano growth? Detritus is organic waste which in the present conditions can not be remineralized and may accumulate.

I dosed PO4 (Brightwell NeoPhos) for a short period of time but then debated if the cyano is just sucking up all of the PO4 fueling the problem. I talked with Dr. Tim and his main takeaway was putting skimmers on a timer to allow other bacteria to establish. I am very open to suggestions and will try to look at my strain under a scope today.

Cyano sucks up phosphorus and builds up a reserve, enough for several cell divisions. They are able to grow when no phosphorus is available. A lot of organisms are able to store phosphorus but you can not starve cyano for phosphate without harming target organisms like corals. A microbial mat may be self-supporting for a long time, even weeks.

Putting the skimmer on a timer? More organics can be remineralized, more inorganic nutrients and buildingmaterials become available for photo-autotrophic growth.
A good GAC may replace the skimmer for removing DOC and toxins, without selective removal of bacteria.
An algae filter may help to provide more competition and export organics.
Harvesting microbial mats also remove organics.
Using low protein food ( high C:N ratio) will increase heterotrophic growth, more competition for the same building materials.

 

[drawman]

Cyano sucks up phosphorus and builds up a reserve, enough for several cell divisions. They are able to grow when no phosphorus is available. A lot of organisms are able to store phosphorus but you can not starve cyano for phosphate without harming target organisms like corals. A microbial mat may be self-supporting for a long time, even weeks.

Putting the skimmer on a timer? More organics can be remineralized, more inorganic nutrients and buildingmaterials become available for photo-autotrophic growth.
A good GAC may replace the skimmer for removing DOC and toxins, without selective removal of bacteria.
An algae filter may help to provide more competition and export organics.
Harvesting microbial mats also remove organics.
Using low protein food ( high C:N ratio) will increase heterotrophic growth, more competition for the same building materials.

Very well said. I think in my case I'm unintentionally low nutrient (not running any export method other than a skimmer). You make a lot of good points I've thought about adding carbon. I'm currently low on nitrate (2.5ppm) and bottomed out on phosphate (0ppm) so the plan will be to dose both.

Any recommendations on a suitable low protein food in this regard?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Very well said. I think in my case I'm unintentionally low nutrient (not running any export method other than a skimmer). You make a lot of good points I've thought about adding carbon. I'm currently low on nitrate (2.5ppm) and bottomed out on phosphate (0ppm) so the plan will be to dose both.

Any recommendations on a suitable low protein food in this regard?

Commercial fish food may have a normal high protein ( 35%) content, this is about the natural content in marine live as scrimp. (C/N ratio +-8:1) Food with a protein content of +- 21% will have a C:N ratio of +- 15:1. This will increase heterotrophic bacterial growth and reduce nitrate production ( not the nitrogen production if the total protein addition is the same!) Increased fast heterotrophic growth will limit the growth of photo-autotrophs but one should be aware that this is only temporary if the heterotrophic produced protein is not consumed and / or harvested.
A skimmer may help to export produced heterotrophic micro-organisms.
Increased heterotrophic growth may clog bio-filters and GAC.

One should not look at a cyano problem as if there is nothing else involved.
Microbial mats containing cyano may be based on heterotrophs and grow.

If an algae filter is used to export nutrients this may not be a good idea.


To solve this we are investigating the production of bio floc in a refuge, bio floc which can be used as a food source or be harvested, as needed. This to be used in a big high nutrient mixed reef system and for eliminating the use of a skimmer.

A lot of different strains of cyano are present in a reef aquarium and may play an important role in the nutrient supply in microbial communities, some are an essential part of the coral holobiont.
I can only advise that if they become a nuisance to remove them manually. In addition, one can use a good UV unit while doing it and for at least the next 12h. ( flow rate once each hour)

 

[Dan_P]

I am still growing and experimenting on cyanobacteria. When the culture reaches a certain size, I discovered that I cannot keep the nutrient levels constant. I resorted to dosing! Can you believe that I am dosing cyanobacteria to keep them happy?

I am using a four pump Jebao dosing system to feed four different cultures of cyanobacteria growing in small petri dishes (lower left in the photo). The setup is known as a chemostat. Experiments run about two weeks, making progress relatively slow.

 

[drawman]

I am still growing and experimenting on cyanobacteria. When the culture reaches a certain size, I discovered that I cannot keep the nutrient levels constant. I resorted to dosing! Can you believe that I am dosing cyanobacteria to keep them happy?

I am using a four pump Jebao dosing system to feed four different cultures of cyanobacteria growing in small petri dishes (lower left in the photo). The setup is known as a chemostat. Experiments run about two weeks, making progress relatively slow.

Wow sir! If you want a super strain I can always send you one lol.

 

[Dan_P]

Wow sir! If you want a super strain I can always send you one lol.

Funny you should say that. An R2R colleague tried sending me a sample of red cyanobacteria this summer only to have it turn to pink soup by the time it reached my mail box. When we have the shipping conditions figured out, I may just put out a request for samples

 

[SauceyReef]

I am having some cyano problems. My nutrient levels are not bottomed out, and not very high. I also have more than an adequate amount of flow. Its been a while I have been battling this. Any suggestions? I heard some talking in earlier pages about cleaning the sand bed? I have a Fluval 13.5 you can see on my build thread.

 

[MnFish1]

I am having some cyano problems. My nutrient levels are not bottomed out, and not very high. I also have more than an adequate amount of flow. Its been a while I have been battling this. Any suggestions? I heard some talking in earlier pages about cleaning the sand bed? I have a Fluval 13.5 you can see on my build thread.

The issue (IMHO) - with saying cyano etc is nutrient related - is that you can use chemiclean - and get rid of it - for months if not forever. If nutrients were the issue, this IMHO would not be the case

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I am having some cyano problems. My nutrient levels are not bottomed out, and not very high. I also have more than an adequate amount of flow. Its been a while I have been battling this. Any suggestions? I heard some talking in earlier pages about cleaning the sand bed? I have a Fluval 13.5 you can see on my build thread.

How old is your tank? Cyano is often part of "the uglies" and if routinely removed to prevent massive amounts accumulating, may go away on its own.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I am having some cyano problems. My nutrient levels are not bottomed out, and not very high. I also have more than an adequate amount of flow. Its been a while I have been battling this. Any suggestions? I heard some talking in earlier pages about cleaning the sand bed? I have a Fluval 13.5 you can see on my build thread.

Cyano blooms typically start when water nutrient concentrations of phosphate, nitrate and other organic compounds are too high.
Some of the most common causes include:
- Protein skimmer which fills water with tiny air bubbles. As bubbles form from the reaction chamber, dissolved organic compound molecules stick to them. Foam forms at the surface of the water and is then transferred to a collection cup, where it rests as skim-mate. When the protein skimmer does not output the best efficiency or you do not have the suitable protein skimmer to cover the tank, the air bubbles created by the skimmer might be insufficient. And this insufficiency of air bubbles can trigger the cyano to thrive.
- Overstocking / overfeeding, your aquarium with nutrients is often the culprit of a cyano bloom
- Adding live rock that isn’t completely cured which acts like a breeding ground for red slime algae
- If you don’t change your water with enough frequency, you’ll soon have a brightly colored red slime algae bloom. Regular water changes dilute nutrients that feed cyanobacteria and keeps your tank beautifully clear
- Using a water source with nitrates or phosphates is like rolling out the welcome mat for cyano. Tap water is an example
- Inadequate water flow, or movement, is a leading cause of cyano blooms. Slow moving water combined with excess dissolved nutrients is a recipe for pervasive red slime algae development

 

[SauceyReef]

Appreciate the replies. Ya'll will probably have some good insight. My tank is near 2 years old. My nutrients got out of control 3-4 months ago. I upped my macro algae photoperiod, stepped up water changes, than nutrients bottomed out and that is when the cyano started growing! I am finally back on track with stable 10-20 ppm nitrates for the past 2 months. Doing consistent water changes, and cleaning my pumps regularly ive noticed is big. They build gunk up fast and slow down.

I am hoping this new rhythm of manual removal and keeping better care of my tank will kick the cyano out over time. After reading through here I think I am going to try really giving my rocks a good ol clean next water change. Than maybe the water change after that I will try cleaning parts of the sandbed. If all of this doesnt work, I can rely on chemicals.

These two shots show the tank a few weeks ago when the cyano was at it's peak for this month.

 

[JasPR]

Hello All,
I am curious what are the root causes of cyano. I have zero experience with it in my aquaria... *knocks on wood*. I want to avoid creating an aquarium environment that fosters the growth of cyano for the future.

I have been a hobbyist in marine aquariums for 45 years. I have come to the conclusion that cyan is, like so many things existing yet unseen in our aquariums, a lurking background species. Each aquarium has both a unique and universal common mix of viruses, bacteria and other higher micro species. Cyano is omni present and will appear not just because the fundamental needs are met ( organic material and lack of oxygen).It is NOT about poor flow. That is just something that was printed in the 19980s and parroted over and over on the internet. Indeed, it grows best where strong current brings organics to the cyano mat or cyano that clings to dead rock or coral skeleton. Two triggers for when food supply are adequate are 1) a change in lighting and temperature. 2) The food and frequency of feedings you are putting in the aquarium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Cyano is omni present and will appear not just because the fundamental needs are met ( organic material and lack of oxygen).It is NOT about poor flow. That is just something that was printed in the 19980s and parroted over and over on the internet. Indeed, it grows best where strong current brings organics to the cyano mat or cyano that clings to dead rock or coral skeleton.

IME, many types of cyano are unable to maintain position in high flow. Perhaps not all, but some are simply blown away and other organisms take the spot.