What happened to the hobby?

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ironman187

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I would have to disagree this is not a rich persons hobbie it’s like any hobbie you can make it as cheap or expensive as you want it too be
Exactly. I think the premise that it's a hobby for the rich only serves to further the OP's sentament. Black box lights, cheap Chinese DC pumps and other budget equiptment is routinely bashed, yet there are some absolutely stunning tanks that use this equiptment. You don't need a tank controller, a $500 sump, $1800 worth of designer LEDs, thousands of dollars worth of equiptment, $800 Gem tangs, and "designer" corals to have a nice tank, and I think a lot of us who geek out over the hobby get lost in the marketing hype and forget about this.
 
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sde1500

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If you're going to make a statement like this it would be nice to have some 'evidence' - like - what kind of market manipulation. Do you mean marketing (thats not market manipulation - take toothpaste as a somewhat silly example) - have you noticed how every 4 months or so they come out with a new improved version - that costs xx% more than the last one? Is that market manipulation - for those people who just want to brush their teeth - as compared to those who want less sensitive gums, bright white teeth - and clean breath (when both probably cost the same $ for the company to make?)
They also claimed there that Australia closing would only cause a rise in prices due to marketing again. You’ll notice when I challenged a few to back those wild claims up with data that it’s been nothing but crickets since.
 

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Ok, I really try to avoid threads like this because they frustrate me. They don’t frustrate me as a member of R2R, but as a business owner (Unrelated to the hobby). Have you guys ever sat and thought about the costs these coral vendors/farms incur?

Watch a YouTube video of @WWC farm. look at the amount of radions hanging above the farm (I’d bet it’s close to a six figure number just in lighting). Or @TopShelfAquatics They have radions galore too. Heck even some of the smaller farms like @Battlecorals or @FraghouseCorals. Have you ever thought about the cost to heat the thousands of gallons? The cost of powering all those lights? The warehouse rent? Payroll? Benefits for employees? Think about these things when you ask yourself why a coral that was once 5 dollars is now $50. Everything in life is subject to inflation. To accuse the fine men and women in this industry of collusion is asinine.

BTW, the vendors listed above that I have had dealings with are excellent and cover losses etc. which carries a cost as well...

Is there a niche market for high end coral? Sure, the rarity, growth rate, level of difficulty to keep will always come into play as well.

A hobbyist may be able to sell the same corals for less money hence no overhead, it will always be that way.

For some of these larger farms I can easily come up with 50k a month in overhead running numbers in my head, so how many 50-200 dollar frags do you have to sell to cover that? This doesn’t account for all of the actual setup costs either. These guys have to make money to stay in business! To compare them to big pharma shouldn’t even land on the same map or planet for that matter :).
 

4FordFamily

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Ok, I really try to avoid threads like this because they frustrate me. They don’t frustrate me as a member of R2R, but as a business owner (Unrelated to the hobby). Have you guys ever sat and thought about the costs these coral vendors/farms incur?

Watch a YouTube video of @WWC farm. look at the amount of radions hanging above the farm (I’d bet it’s close to a six figure number just in lighting). Or @TopShelfAquatics They have radions galore too. Heck even some of the smaller farms like @Battlecorals or @FraghouseCorals. Have you ever thought about the cost to heat the thousands of gallons? The cost of powering all those lights? The warehouse rent? Payroll? Benefits for employees? Think about these things when you ask yourself why a coral that was once 5 dollars is now $50. Everything in life is subject to inflation. To accuse the fine men and women in this industry of collusion is asinine.

BTW, the vendors listed above that I have had dealings with are excellent and cover losses etc. which carries a cost as well...

Is there a niche market for high end coral? Sure, the rarity, growth rate, level of difficulty to keep will always come into play as well.

A hobbyist may be able to sell the same corals for less money hence no overhead, it will always be that way.

For some of these larger farms I can easily come up with 50k a month in overhead running numbers in my head, so how many 50-200 dollar frags do you have to sell to cover that? These guys have to make money to stay in business! To compare them to big pharma shouldn’t even land on the same map or planet for that matter :).
Slow clap.
 

Thales

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I would have to disagree this is not a rich persons hobbie it’s like any hobbie you can make it as cheap or expensive as you want it too be
I call it a luxury hobby which is different that a rich persons hobby.
 
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sde1500

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Ok, I really try to avoid threads like this because they frustrate me. They don’t frustrate me as a member of R2R, but as a business owner (Unrelated to the hobby). Have you guys ever sat and thought about the costs these coral vendors/farms incur?

Watch a YouTube video of @WWC farm. look at the amount of radions hanging above the farm (I’d bet it’s close to a six figure number just in lighting). Or @TopShelfAquatics They have radions galore too. Heck even some of the smaller farms like @Battlecorals or @FraghouseCorals. Have you ever thought about the cost to heat the thousands of gallons? The cost of powering all those lights? The warehouse rent? Payroll? Benefits for employees? Think about these things when you ask yourself why a coral that was once 5 dollars is now $50. Everything in life is subject to inflation. To accuse the fine men and women in this industry of collusion is asinine.

BTW, the vendors listed above that I have had dealings with are excellent and cover losses etc. which carries a cost as well...

Is there a niche market for high end coral? Sure, the rarity, growth rate, level of difficulty to keep will always come into play as well.

A hobbyist may be able to sell the same corals for less money hence no overhead, it will always be that way.

For some of these larger farms I can easily come up with 50k a month in overhead running numbers in my head, so how many 50-200 dollar frags do you have to sell to cover that? These guys have to make money to stay in business! To compare them to big pharma shouldn’t even land on the same map or planet for that matter :).
Freaking mic drop right there. Thank you.
 

Crabs McJones

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Ok, I really try to avoid threads like this because they frustrate me. They don’t frustrate me as a member of R2R, but as a business owner (Unrelated to the hobby). Have you guys ever sat and thought about the costs these coral vendors/farms incur?

Watch a YouTube video of @WWC farm. look at the amount of radions hanging above the farm (I’d bet it’s close to a six figure number just in lighting). Or @TopShelfAquatics They have radions galore too. Heck even some of the smaller farms like @Battlecorals or @FraghouseCorals. Have you ever thought about the cost to heat the thousands of gallons? The cost of powering all those lights? The warehouse rent? Payroll? Benefits for employees? Think about these things when you ask yourself why a coral that was once 5 dollars is now $50. Everything in life is subject to inflation. To accuse the fine men and women in this industry of collusion is asinine.

BTW, the vendors listed above that I have had dealings with are excellent and cover losses etc. which carries a cost as well...

Is there a niche market for high end coral? Sure, the rarity, growth rate, level of difficulty to keep will always come into play as well.

A hobbyist may be able to sell the same corals for less money hence no overhead, it will always be that way.

For some of these larger farms I can easily come up with 50k a month in overhead running numbers in my head, so how many 50-200 dollar frags do you have to sell to cover that? This doesn’t account for all of the actual setup costs either. These guys have to make money to stay in business! To compare them to big pharma shouldn’t even land on the same map or planet for that matter :).
source.gif
 

ironman187

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Ok, I really try to avoid threads like this because they frustrate me. They don’t frustrate me as a member of R2R, but as a business owner (Unrelated to the hobby). Have you guys ever sat and thought about the costs these coral vendors/farms incur?

Watch a YouTube video of @WWC farm. look at the amount of radions hanging above the farm (I’d bet it’s close to a six figure number just in lighting). Or @TopShelfAquatics They have radions galore too. Heck even some of the smaller farms like @Battlecorals or @FraghouseCorals. Have you ever thought about the cost to heat the thousands of gallons? The cost of powering all those lights? The warehouse rent? Payroll? Benefits for employees? Think about these things when you ask yourself why a coral that was once 5 dollars is now $50. Everything in life is subject to inflation. To accuse the fine men and women in this industry of collusion is asinine.

BTW, the vendors listed above that I have had dealings with are excellent and cover losses etc. which carries a cost as well...

Is there a niche market for high end coral? Sure, the rarity, growth rate, level of difficulty to keep will always come into play as well.

A hobbyist may be able to sell the same corals for less money hence no overhead, it will always be that way.

For some of these larger farms I can easily come up with 50k a month in overhead running numbers in my head, so how many 50-200 dollar frags do you have to sell to cover that? This doesn’t account for all of the actual setup costs either. These guys have to make money to stay in business! To compare them to big pharma shouldn’t even land on the same map or planet for that matter :).
While I agree with you, none of that is relevant. As a consumer, I don't care how a large coral farm runs their business, or what the cost of running said business is. I only care about the price and quality of livestock going into my tank.
 

4FordFamily

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While I agree with you, none of that is relevant. As a consumer, I don't care how a large coral farm runs their business, or what the cost of running said business is. I only care about the price and quality of livestock going into my tank.
Of course, but it is important to understand how this works. Fixed costs, variable costs, and if you don’t want to pay them you can set up your own growing operation. That’s the free market :)
 
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ironman187

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Of course, but it is important to understand how this works. Fixed costs, variable costs, and if you don’t want to pay them you can set up your own growing operation. That’s the free market :)
I respectfully disagree. What consumer tries to understand the inner workings of the business they buy any product from?
 

Commander86

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While I agree with you, none of that is relevant. As a consumer, I don't care how a large coral farm runs their business, or what the cost of running said business is. I only care about the price and quality of livestock going into my tank.
I try not to respond to these statements but this one is to hard to resist. Ironman..... IT IS 100% RELEVANT!!!!! Obviously you are not a small business supporter and are 100% cost conscious. Unfortunate really. Until you understand the overhead of said businesses in the thread don’t point fingers and complain about cost.
 
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ironman187

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I try not to respond to these statements but this one is to hard to resist. Ironman..... IT IS 100% RELEVANT!!!!! Obviously you are not a small business supporter and are 100% cost conscious. Unfortunate really. Until you understand the overhead of said businesses in the thread don’t point fingers and complain about cost.
It's not the consumer's job or responsibility to support any business. Full stop. Economics 101- the market prices are dictated by what the consumer is willing to pay for products and services. Operating costs of any business simply don't matter to the free market. If a business can't find a ballance between their overhead costs and the prices the market will bear, they should, and will go out of business. Compete or die. Petty insults are not a good look btw.
 
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Commander86

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While I agree with you, none of that is relevant. As a consumer, I don't care how a large coral farm runs their business, or what the cost of running said business is. I only care about the price and quality of livestock going into my tank.
It's not the consumer's job or responsibility to support any business. Full stop. Economics 101- the market prices are dictated by what the consumer is willing to pay for products and services. Operating costs of any business simply don't matter to the free market. If a business can't find a ballance between their overhead costs and the prices the market will bear, they should, and will go out of business. Compete or die. Petty insults are not a good look btw.
My wife is the only one that needs to be concerned about how I look in any fashion.
 
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Commander86

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Economics 101... I’ll need a works cited page attached. The old saying applies you get what you pay for. So many arguments to your statements. This attitude is what creates monopolies. Not allowing the average dreamer to succeed because he doesn’t satisfy your wallet. Business that don’t find a balance do go out of business and they cannot compete with big box. They don’t have the buying power however they can provide a more personalized touch that many are willing to pay for. When building my Ar’s and handguns I always consider the seller. I buy high end becase of customer service, warranty, RD IE quality, brick and mortar. I even pay attention to how they treat their employees becase I am not a jerk. I vote with my wallet and I get what I pay for. I commend these businesses and individuals for taking the proverbial leap to achieve their dreams. Everyone has to make money along the way. Free market yes, well everyone is paying for it that’s why we are where we are with cost. People are paying for it, If you don’t like it then take up knitting or bird watching. Listen I’m here for you just spitballing ideas.
 
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sde1500

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I respectfully disagree. What consumer tries to understand the inner workings of the business they buy any product from?
The point of this is to highlight that the bans on coral exports from Indo and Fiji served to remove the vast majority of low cost input coral sources. What we are now left with is mainly Aussie which is a MUCH lower volume, and aquaculture which involves much higher costs to operate. All this serves to increase the prices of corals.
 

ironman187

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The point of this is to highlight that the bans on coral exports from Indo and Fiji served to remove the vast majority of low cost input coral sources. What we are now left with is mainly Aussie which is a MUCH lower volume, and aquaculture which involves much higher costs to operate. All this serves to increase the prices of corals.
I'm not disagreeing with that aspect of it.
 

4FordFamily

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I respectfully disagree. What consumer tries to understand the inner workings of the business they buy any product from?
He need not. But if you want to complain about pricing as if you know the inner workings of the business and accuse people of “unethical pricing” or whatever position being taken, you probably should have an elementary understanding so you can formulate an educated viewpoint.

The best part of the free market is that if the perceived value of what you’re looking to buy is far less than the price, you can take your business elsewhere. If there are few better deals, then there may be micro and macroeconomic reasons behind the pricing that you’re seeing.

This hobby in its’ entirety is luxury goods. As price sensitive as anyone here that knows me personally knows that I am, I spend what I need to and want to for the luxury goods I find important. This hobby, cars, housing — everything else, namely commodity goods I buy generic everything. Not because I think name brands and luxury goods aside from what I value personally are evil but because my perceived value of said goods is less than others. I’m fine with a $20 shirt. If someone wants a $300 shirt that’s for them to decide. I don’t spend much time worrying about what others do, I vote with my own wallet and I move on.
 

sde1500

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I'm not disagreeing with that aspect of it.
OK thats good, just then I don't think I get where you were going with your reply to HotRocks. We have people in this thread claiming its all nothing more than a marketing scam so he broke down very well on costs as to why it isn't some scam. I mean, yea quality is important, but that wasn't what the point of the post was about.
 
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