What happened to the hobby?

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MnFish1

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There's a reason why regulatory bodies exist, and it's not because "they are commies that want to crush the free market"
I dont recall anyone mentioning commies, or crushing the free market. SO you are making a fallacious argument.. BTW - I did google it:

In 2015, the U.S. spent $325 billion on retail prescription drugs (drugs purchased at pharmacies and through the mail, as opposed to those administered directly by doctors), according to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services. That's 1.8% of GDP, or 10% of total national health expenditures.

Your example Heritage pharma is a drop in the bucket - not a real issue.
 

NotASpammerDude

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I dont recall anyone mentioning commies, or crushing the free market. SO you are making a fallacious argument.. BTW - I did google it:

In 2015, the U.S. spent $325 billion on retail prescription drugs (drugs purchased at pharmacies and through the mail, as opposed to those administered directly by doctors), according to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services. That's 1.8% of GDP, or 10% of total national health expenditures.

Your example Heritage pharma is a drop in the bucket - not a real issue.
You ask for an example, someone provides it, then you refuse to accept it or change your view. You are not arguing in good faith. Instead, you have a point of view you want to get across and refuse to accept new evidence. That's disappointing.
 

MnFish1

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You ask for an example, someone provides it, then you refuse to accept it or change your view. You are not arguing in good faith. Instead, you have a point of view you want to get across and refuse to accept new evidence. That's disappointing.
Oh come on - lets not turn this into some kind of trial with evidence. I was making the point that there is not widespread collusion in the coral industry - and apparently - not in the pharmaceutical industry either - I never claimed that there was NEVER EVER collusion in any industry. just that it wasn't common. You're not living up to your screename:):) (that ws a joke btw in case I need to explain
 

EHerbert

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I agree... I remember BP (Before Plugs) when you could buy a nice colony of just about anything, attached to a rock for $30/$40. You may have paid up to $80 for something exclusive. Now I'm seeing one zoa polyp or mushroom going for up to $100. Unbelievable. I'm lucky to live in Southern California where I have a good half dozen local LFS within 30 minutes of my home and another 3/4 about an hour away where I can find just about whatever I want at a reasonable price. As a result, I do not order coral online. I have in the past but was never really satisfied with what I received. And, I refuse to pay high prices for "a" polyp or frag of anything, plus shipping. Anyway, I'm in this hobby for the long haul so maybe things will come full circle one day.
 

flsalty

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Oh come on - lets not turn this into some kind of trial with evidence. I was making the point that there is not widespread collusion in the coral industry - and apparently - not in the pharmaceutical industry either - I never claimed that there was NEVER EVER collusion in any industry. just that it wasn't common. You're not living up to your screename:):) (that ws a joke btw in case I need to explain
Did anybody claim collusion? That seems more like a strawman argument. There doesn't need to be collusion. It can be just a monkey see monkey do sort of thing. I agree there is no collusion. I also don't completely blame the vendors.
 

Albert Bazaar

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I wasn't around at that time but im guessing over the years a lot of people been getting into keeping reef tanks which means there's a lot more demand on corals and fish. Also with climate change and our oceans reef being wiped out it's harder to get corals?

I would suggest find some local or non-local friends to trade corals with.
there is no shortage of coral in the oceans.The probl;em is that Cites and the Conservationists are Restricting even farmed corals and clams.they simply do not want to give the permits.Many of these operations will go under.then they will say Conservation through Commercialization doesn't work.The Conservationist do not like the reefs being restored with clams and coral.Because that's what they want to do Save the Reefs.If it's already saved then THEY ARE OUT OF BUSINESS.SORRY it's the truth.How can a Farm anywhere in the world operate when they restrict how many animals,plants,fish you can produce.They are even trying to make Amphiprion CITES.They even tried to make them ESA(US Endangered species act) if they would have been successful Clownfish would need special permits just to move over state lines and the recipient would also have to have a permit and be approved.What hobbyists don't understand is the Conservationist do not look at you as conservationists they look at you as a consumer and exploiter of wildlife.I have been a Wildlife Importer and Exporter for 35 years.If it is Commercial or consumer breeding it's exploitation.If it's the NGO organizations doing it it's Conservation.That's the fact.Fight for your rights to have your fish.
 

MnFish1

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Did anybody claim collusion? That seems more like a strawman argument. There doesn't need to be collusion. It can be just a monkey see monkey do sort of thing. I agree there is no collusion. I also don't completely blame the vendors.
No - no one used that word - specifically - BUT many of the posts seem to suggest that 'vendors' in general are making prices high' - and 'they should lower prices'. To me that suggests that they are somehow acting together to keep prices high. Prices will come down when there is more supply or less demand IMO
 

Thales

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What hobbyists don't understand is the Conservationist do not look at you as conservationists they look at you as a consumer and exploiter of wildlife.
Isn't that accurate?
 

ironman187

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LOL!!
That's all you got?

I never said ALLLLLL of the newer folks. It was a generalization and you know it. But your rebuttal is hilarious.

I stand by my opinions and statements.
With all do respect, he's right. The vast majority of corals and fish that the OP is considering overpriced are small frags or juveniles. That has nothing to do with patience and everything to do with market supply and demand. A lack of patience would be the people buying large colinies and adult fish. Small frags in a big tank isn't a good look, and it takes time to grow them out.
 
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Rick.45cal

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In all honesty this shouldn’t be an inexpensive or “cheap” hobby. Too many people already take these organisms for granted, you don‘t have to look very hard at the worlds reefs to see the truth in that statement. Inevitably there will be a time when aquaculture will likely be the only way to legally obtain corals. Supporting the people/companies/farms that are making that happen right now isn’t all bad.

Sharing with other aquarists in local clubs and organizations is really an important aspect of maintaining this community and hobby and making it accessible to more people. There are more options than paying retail, sometimes you have to make some friends in the process.
 

Joedubyk

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In all honesty this shouldn’t be an inexpensive or “cheap” hobby. Too many people already take these organisms for granted, you don‘t have to look very hard at the worlds reefs to see the truth in that statement. Inevitably there will be a time when aquaculture will likely be the only way to legally obtain corals. Supporting the people/companies/farms that are making that happen right now isn’t all bad.

Sharing with other aquarists in local clubs and organizations is really an important aspect of maintaining this community and hobby and making it accessible to more people. There are more options than paying retail, sometimes you have to make some friends in the process.
Yup! Let's be REAL, at some point they will likely ban most of the wild coral. That means we all have to farm. That means prices will get more expensive. That means the trendy pieces will get more expensive. No longer will we be able to just pluck corals out of the ocean and sell them for a meager 15 dollars.

The hobby is starting to evolve. Probably for the better.
 
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AngryMike2016

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In all honesty this shouldn’t be an inexpensive or “cheap” hobby. Too many people already take these organisms for granted, you don‘t have to look very hard at the worlds reefs to see the truth in that statement. Inevitably there will be a time when aquaculture will likely be the only way to legally obtain corals. Supporting the people/companies/farms that are making that happen right now isn’t all bad.

Sharing with other aquarists in local clubs and organizations is really an important aspect of maintaining this community and hobby and making it accessible to more people. There are more options than paying retail, sometimes you have to make some friends in the process.
When you put it that way, I am inclined to agree. I come from a parrot rescue background, and I have seen literally hundreds of times how much better people will treat, say, a macaw, over a parakeet; simply because one cost $2,000 and the other cost $20. I find that really sad.
 

Mastiffsrule

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Hi folks, read the title, first 3 posts and mikes. (I’m a bird guy too, at least my macaw thinks so)

Anyone mention the 90’s when 500$ could overstock a 55 by a mile?

Anyway,

1571956079148.gif
 

MnFish1

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Hi folks, read the title, first 3 posts and mikes. (I’m a bird guy too, at least my macaw thinks so)

Anyone mention the 90’s when 500$ could overstock a 55 by a mile?

Anyway,

1571956079148.gif
Its funny - I find many fish much less expensive now than in the 1980's - same with corals. Back then not many people were selling frags though. Many - especially LPS - are less expensive now - than they were then. I would bet that going forward - that the same thing will happen with SPS (depending on the ban situation)
 
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Mastiffsrule

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Its funny - I find many fish much less expensive now than in the 1980's - same with corals. Back then not many people were selling frags though. Many - especially LPS - are less expensive now - than they were then. I would bet that going forward - that the same thing will happen with SPS (depending on the ban situation)
I do remember when purple tangs hit the scene. They were going $299 back then.

I guess it’s all supply and demand. I demand lower prices and they don’t supply the products.
 

ppatches24

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this forum is free(for now)
Is funny how many times I get a pop up asking to become a 200 dollar sponsor. im on a forum to be with fish people and reef lovers not to give a company 200 dollars a year.

But it's there site and I agreed to the terms and conditions when making an account, but I don't like it.
 

MnFish1

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Supply and demand is only the tip of the iceberg, market manipulation has created a false demand and has only been perpetuated by people actually paying the asking prices. Completely inflating the price of the hobby.
If you're going to make a statement like this it would be nice to have some 'evidence' - like - what kind of market manipulation. Do you mean marketing (thats not market manipulation - take toothpaste as a somewhat silly example) - have you noticed how every 4 months or so they come out with a new improved version - that costs xx% more than the last one? Is that market manipulation - for those people who just want to brush their teeth - as compared to those who want less sensitive gums, bright white teeth - and clean breath (when both probably cost the same $ for the company to make?)
 

MnFish1

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I personally don't think it has to do with wealth, although people with more disposable income may not think twice about throwing $500 at a coral rather than someone who has to live on a budget.

For most people regardless of wealth, it comes down to perspective of value, those that are veterans in the hobby will be more reluctant to pay $500 for a coral that we traded for free or for less than $5 in the past.

Yes there's a little nostalgia there but saying that the price of something has gone up 100 fold in the last 5 years is hard to swallow.
The way I see it - which may be completely incorrect - this is a luxury hobby - just like buying coach purses is a luxury purchase. People (especially young people who dont have as much money) - cant afford them. But - people who have mansions can afford to buy coral - and replace it when they mess up their tank. Again - it would be nice to have an example - because - I personally have not seen any coral I could have traded for $5 now being sold for $500 - and if it is being sold for $500 - I haven't seen it being purchased for $500. Is this just a theoretical discussion - or is about the real coral market today?


So pretend that WWC is the 'Coach' or 'Lexus', and others are the lowest model Kia - or sears purse. I dont see people out there saying that luxury brands are immoral or ruining their lives. Its simple - if you need a car - dont buy a Lexus - buy a kia.
 
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Do you have any coral frag mounting tricks or tips you have learned that really help you?

  • Yes I have learned some tricks (please share in the thread)

    Votes: 68 22.4%
  • No but I would like to learn some (check the thread)

    Votes: 186 61.4%
  • I don't frag corals

    Votes: 49 16.2%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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