What, if anything, am I doing wrong?

[phys]

You've been really thorough with your tank. Its hard to come up with an explanation but, there are tons of reasons something can go wrong. I've seen personally in the past acros just dying for no reason. More often than not, its been subtle mistakes like extra dosing too close to an autodose schedule, having something in the water building up over time that we can't test for (my main purpose for doing water changes), something nipping at corals (despite you not seeing it, not like you watch it 24 hours), something stinging/eating corals at night at it moves around, or other corals secreting battle chemicals near others. Not all acros can be near other acros. Be sure nothing has long tentacles nearby and there aren't any night time hitch-hikers.

Have you changed anything else that you aren't remebering? Added any new fish or inverts? Dosing any trace elements, phyto, or aminos?

 

[alanjeffery]

I would suggest that the Triton method, or at least the way you are using it is the problem.
You have a 366 gallon system including an algae refugium. Given your perceived stable acceptable parameters (assuming all sps relevant parameters are good) and appropriate lighting, you are left with whatever/however you are adding chemicals to the water as the culprit to the sps issues.
You didn't have issues before Triton but do now, coincidence ?
How did you maintain Alk, Cal etc previously?

 

[dgrigor02]

Double check, triple check, alk tests. Have another local reefer ( or fish store ) do a test to confirm your readings. Lower to 7dkh. Calibrate your salinity tests, double check and triple check that it is accurate. If salinity is actually 1.028-1.030 it will stress out acros but LPS etc. don't seem to mind as much.

With acros are loosing at tips and/or base and its relatively slow process, alk too high is the most common in my experience. Like others have said though, it may not be easy to identify that is one of the biggest challenges with acros.

 

[dgrigor02]

Duplicate posts.

 

[alanjeffery]

I would guess an Alk issue

 

[ksfulk]

You've been really thorough with your tank. Its hard to come up with an explanation but, there are tons of reasons something can go wrong. I've seen personally in the past acros just dying for no reason. More often than not, its been subtle mistakes like extra dosing too close to an autodose schedule, having something in the water building up over time that we can't test for (my main purpose for doing water changes), something nipping at corals (despite you not seeing it, not like you watch it 24 hours), something stinging/eating corals at night at it moves around, or other corals secreting battle chemicals near others. Not all acros can be near other acros. Be sure nothing has long tentacles nearby and there aren't any night time hitch-hikers.

Have you changed anything else that you aren't remebering? Added any new fish or inverts? Dosing any trace elements, phyto, or aminos?

Hence the title - it may be that I simply have some acros that hate life in my tank. Things happens sometimes. SPS can be picky. I recognize that. This thread was to see if there was something aside from the obvious that Im missing, or if there is some kind of trend where certain corals dont respond well to method changes (which some dont, I would guess). My acros are well removed from other non-SPS corals, so I dont believe its something stinging them, plus it is wide spread throughout the tank. If the recessions/issues were localized, I could see that being a rogue chalice tentacle or something like that. And its not local to one species of acro - spaths, millies, and others are all effected.

The only thing that has been introduced to the tank in the month that Ive been running the system are 13 acro frags that were purchased at the same time (Bayer dipped, removed from original frag plugs, mounted on fresh plugs, dipped again, then added to a rack) and a mini-max anemone. Prior to that, I havent added any fish or other inverts since end of August. I am only dosing Base Elementz - no AcroPower, other aminos, phytoplankton, etc. I have more than enough going on without having to remember to add another splash of this or that!

Thanks for the comments. Hopefully its something that is either clandestine (acros just hate me) or some elemental build up that I dont test for. We'll see what the Triton test results say.

I would suggest that the Triton method, or at least the way you are using it is the problem.
You have a 366 gallon system including an algae refugium. Given your perceived stable acceptable parameters (assuming all sps relevant parameters are good) and appropriate lighting, you are left with whatever/however you are adding chemicals to the water as the culprit to the sps issues.
You didn't have issues before Triton but do now, coincidence ?
How did you maintain Alk, Cal etc previously?

I dont think its as simple as you make it sound. Others have had quite the success with Triton - my setup meets all of the parameters given by the method, and I have some corals that are responding quite well. These complex systems have more moving parts that most of us are aware of and while adding chemicals seems like a culprit, it would be no different than any other type of two part system.

Previous to starting the Triton method, I was dosing using BRS two part on an infrequent basis, along with water changes. With such low demand for calc/alk, there wasnt much that was needed to keep numbers stable. Upon starting the Triton Method, the uptake of calc/alk increased within a week, and to keep parameters stable, dosing was increased. Growth from many corals is an indicator that the method is, in fact, working - however some of the corals may not be taking to the change well.

Thanks for your comments and insight!

Double check, triple check, alk tests. Have another local reefer ( or fish store ) do a test to confirm your readings. Lower to 7dkh. Calibrate your salinity tests, double check and triple check that it is accurate. If salinity is actually 1.028-1.030 it will stress out acros but LPS etc. don't seem to mind as much.

With acros are loosing at tips and/or base and its relatively slow process, alk too high is the most common in my experience. Like others have said though, it may not be easy to identify that is one of the biggest challenges with acros.

I understand that need to confirm testing - I'm a research chemist by trade, so Im all too familar with titration testing and the like. My main testing is done via Hannah checker, and Ive used Red Sea and Salifert alk tests to confirm my numbers in the past. I actually was very concerned with this in the beginning (before making the switch to Triton) because it all hinges on starting your system at a dKH of 8. Ive also used three different reagents in testing, and have gotten the same (within 2 ppm) numbers on my tests, so replication confirms that the testing is on point. I calibrate my refractometer with 35ppt solution prior to every reading. Again, I dont believe these to be an issue, but thank you for your comments.

 

[dgrigor02]

The lower the nutrient levels in your tank the lower you need to run your alk. Even 8dkh could be too high depending on other variables. Slow recession from the base can be a sign of too high alk ( there is no hard fast rules that say 8dkh is the perfect level ). Burnt tips can also be. So while 8dkh may have worked in the past, it may not be where your system should be now. Lower to 7dkh and see if things improve.

Certainly not going to hurt to do so and see if it helps.


Unfortunately, SPS and particular acros, your not necessarily going to find a root cause. That's one of the frustrating things so either wait it out and hope for the best or try.

Another thing if you have any brown or slime algae in your refugium or elsewhere something that gets release does irritate corals. Running carbon or replacing your carbon will do the trick. However, usually in this case it's LPS that seem to show more signs and stop expanding. But certainly something to consider.

 

[rockerboi09]

I was unaware of the fact that lower nutrient levels typically means that you need to run lower alk. My nutrients aren't traceable (NO3, PO4) and my last triton test came back with 0 PO4 as well. My salinity was a bit low (1.023) so I used salt I had left over before Triton to top off my tank to raise salinity (now at 1.025). My alk was at 8dkh, but after slowly adding Instant Ocean over a week while still dosing the same amounts of Elementz daily my alk raised to 8.9dkh and one of my milli frags tips turned white. I was unsure if I was going to lower my dosing temporarily or wait for it to go down as I just added 8 new SPS frags. I assumed it was because I have only been dosing Elementz and no trace.

When I sent off my first test (right before starting my dosing) I had a few trace elements low. I decided to wait until my second test to decide if I would buy trace elements since base would add some trace as well and I wanted to see how that effected my test. I'll be sending off my second test this week, but once I started Triton I started getting better growth in my corals and a lot of my nuisance algae started to disappear. When my coral growth started to slow down again and began to brown out a bit I assumed it was due to a low nutrient content (according to salifert tests and the fact that my refugium stopped growing). My bioload was very low for the size tank I have. I bought more fish and started feeding more. Now my nuisance algae is completely gone and my corals haven't changed much since. I assume it's because I am not giving them some needed trace elements.

I will say that my tank looks better now than it ever has. I haven't every felt comfortable keeping SPS, now I can. The first 2 years of my tank being set up I had bad nuisance algae problems so I tried everything to reduce nutrients (even though my salifert tests showed 0 NO3 and PO4) from GFO to daily water changes to feeding my tank every 3 days. Nothing worked. Now things seem backwards from everything I learned before as I am not running GFO, no water changes, and I feed my tank at least 4 times a day and feel that I need to add even more fish. I'm hoping that the only thing preventing my SPS to grow now are certain trace elements. I should know before too much longer. I'm interested to see what your test comes back like.

 

[ksfulk]

The lower the nutrient levels in your tank the lower you need to run your alk. Even 8dkh could be too high depending on other variables. Slow recession from the base can be a sign of too high alk ( there is no hard fast rules that say 8dkh is the perfect level ). Burnt tips can also be. So while 8dkh may have worked in the past, it may not be where your system should be now. Lower to 7dkh and see if things improve.

Certainly not going to hurt to do so and see if it helps.


Unfortunately, SPS and particular acros, your not necessarily going to find a root cause. That's one of the frustrating things so either wait it out and hope for the best or try.

Another thing if you have any brown or slime algae in your refugium or elsewhere something that gets release does irritate corals. Running carbon or replacing your carbon will do the trick. However, usually in this case it's LPS that seem to show more signs and stop expanding. But certainly something to consider.

Im not exactly sure this is considered a low nutrient system - as the nitrates are ~8 and while the phosphates test at undetectable, the growth in the fuge would suggest that is not the case. That being said, as the method is built around maintaining a alkalinity level of 8dKH, it seems counterproductive to change the stable level to a lower one, when only a select group of corals are effected. Like I stated before, some are regressing, others are not. In striving for stability, I dont think that changing the chemistry of the water is going to be beneficial after getting it all dialed in. I dont mean to sound like Im blowing off your advice, I'm not. I appreciate eveyone's suggestions and critiques - I just think that patience is key here. Sometimes changes that you made take a bit to show the effects. I also know that tweaking a bunch of things at once makes for poor results when attempting to determine root cause. If my other corals start to show signs of regression, then it will be time to act.

In reading through some other forums, it seems that others have had some issues with making the switch to the method, and this all may in fact just be the inability for some acros to deal well with that change. It has also been suggested that the make up of the Base Elementz dosing solutions may contain trace elements that werent present or present in such a low concentration before, that the introduction of the new material does not jive well with the individual species. Its all conjecture at this point, but who doesnt believe everything thats on the internet these days?

The corals that were losing flesh continue to do so, exposing bare white skeletons to the open water. I'm sad about it, and a little frustrated :mad:, but I think the realization that even taking things slow and going all in on a good method with stable parameters can still have some setbacks . Even people with amazing looking reefs (GlennF) that have changed over have had issues (which lends credence to the fact that some corals dont handle change well). One month isnt a lot of time, and in the grand scheme of things, the tanks only been set up for 8 months - so maybe Im still working on getting a matured system... who knows. I'll stick with what Im doing, keeping things going nice and slow with stable, well monitored parameters. Maybe someone else using this method will speak up to their experiences changing over from one method to another.

 

[Reflective]

I'm following along as my SPS did the same thing as yours. I have one that has been unaffected and I have resorted back to water changes to save 1/2 of another one. Acans and favias weren't doing well either. All other corals are fine.

 

[lexinverts]

I'm going to say that you need to have some detectable phosphate in your system. I run Triton and I have had some similar issues when my Phosphate and/or Nitrate are undetectable. Your refugium might be doing too good of a job with the phosphate. Scott and Joe will tell you that they only run their skimmer for 12 hours per day so that their phosphate stays around .08. Try running your skimmer for half of the day and see if you acros perk up at all. Good luck!

 

[levi213]

Sounds like some bad nudis

 

[pirate2876]

I would try dosing nitrate. I had a problem very similar to yours and dosing nitrate seems to be helping.

 

[ksfulk]

I'm going to say that you need to have some detectable phosphate in your system. I run Triton and I have had some similar issues when my Phosphate and/or Nitrate are undetectable. Your refugium might be doing too good of a job with the phosphate. Scott and Joe will tell you that they only run their skimmer for 12 hours per day so that their phosphate stays around .08. Try running your skimmer for half of the day and see if you acros perk up at all. Good luck!

Ive been pondering this as well. Ive always ran a rather "dirty" system in comparision to this tank (phosphates in the 0.1 - 0.3 range) and it worked with other (albeit smaller) systems. Ive been tossing out a packed 600ml beaker of macroalgae every 2-3 days, so there is some serious growth going on in the fuge. Thats why I took my GFO off line, so I wouldnt starve the macro nutrient export. My skimmer is fairly well oversized for my system, so this might be something to look into. Thanks!

 

[ksfulk]

Sounds like some bad nudis

No pests to be found on the acros

I would try dosing nitrate. I had a problem very similar to yours and dosing nitrate seems to be helping.

Nitrates are stable at ~ 8ppm, which I think is right in the ballpark of where it should be. Dosing nitrate without detectable phosphate seems counterintuative, as the nitrate cant be used without phosphate present. Still, something else to think about. Thanks!

 

[dgrigor02]

You keep saying undetectable phosphate, what are you using to determine this ? Undetectable is pretty hard to do. The colors of the corals also suggest this is not correct. Typically they will get lighter in color and more pale ( assuming lighting hasn't changed ).

 

[ksfulk]

You keep saying undetectable phosphate, what are you using to determine this ? Undetectable is pretty hard to do. The colors of the corals also suggest this is not correct. Typically they will get lighter in color and more pale ( assuming lighting hasn't changed ).

Undetectable is referring to below the limit of the testing kit to measure - IE reading of 0.00

This suggests, based on the test kit, that there is no phosphate present, when the prolific growth in the refugium would suggest otherwise. Which is why I dont say "There are no phosphates present", but that they are not detectable based on the testing kits that I am using. Using the Hanna phosphate checker (HI713), Im well aware that the resolution of this instrument may not be fine enough to provide an accurate number at low concentrations. Here are the specs, from Hanna, for this instrument:

• Range: 0.00 to 2.50 ppm (mg/L)
• Resolution: 0.01 ppm (mg/L)
• Precision: ±0.04 ppm (mg/L) ±4% of reading @ 25°C

This would lead me to believe that even a reading of 0.00 has the potential to be as high as 0.04, even if everything else is perfect. As with my other tests, the results are consistent, which would lead me to believe that it is not an analyst error in testing, but a result that is beyond the precision of the instrument, when supplimentary evidence suggests that the phosphate is indeed present.

 

[lexinverts]

Ive been pondering this as well. Ive always ran a rather "dirty" system in comparision to this tank (phosphates in the 0.1 - 0.3 range) and it worked with other (albeit smaller) systems. Ive been tossing out a packed 600ml beaker of macroalgae every 2-3 days, so there is some serious growth going on in the fuge. Thats why I took my GFO off line, so I wouldnt starve the macro nutrient export. My skimmer is fairly well oversized for my system, so this might be something to look into. Thanks!

When Scott Fellman spoke at our reef club a year ago he described a situation in which they had undetectable phosphate and nitrate in their raceways because of highly efficient skimming and when Jake Adams visited he told them that their corals looked terrible because they were starving. After that, they started running their skimmer 12 hrs per day (at night) and tracked levels until they had stable nitrate around 5-8 ppm and phosphate around .04-.08. Scott said that since then, their livestock has never looked better.

 

[ksfulk]

Got my Triton test back today....

And I dont see a smoking gun here either - However, there were detectable levels of COPPER in the tank! :mad: Im not sure where its coming from, but I'll look to remedy that with some Cuprisorb or similar media. Calcium is about where I measured it before sending off my test kit (410 (me) vs 405 (triton)), Magnesium is close enough (1360 me vs 1317 (triton)), Phosphate was where I thought it would test at, as lower than my checker could accurately test (0.00 (me) vs 0.029 (triton)). From the looks of the raw numbers, I might want to check my salinity and refractometer again for accuracy, as I might be running a little low.

So, aside from the Copper, that leaves me with a remaining connundrum... what the heck is going on?!?

The water testing leads me to believe that perhaps its my equipment. I mean, most of the acros that are having issues are brown with only a hint of color to them, those that are doing fine have gained some depth of color. Could it be my lighting? Maybe - seems odd that it would have an effect on acros at different depths without favoring one side or another. Otherwise I would look to flow, but with the gyre and my returns, the flow seems to be more than what most people push through similar sized tanks.

Otherwise, I think I may have to simply resign myself to the notion that Im not doing anything "wrong", its the coral and not me... and thats almost more scary if Im honest about it

 

[Tim@Triton]

I would tend to agree that Chemically your water looks in pretty good shape!!