What if I never vacuumed my gravel?

[BabyBoyGreene]

I've read a little and seen some videos that talk about this... it seems like its just common practice to keep the media clean if you have it (I read the sand washing thread) and I think for serious reefers its generally just part of the SOPs. But in my case, I think I would like to try it... I can do a 1/3 WC on my 32g in about 10 minutes including mixing the salt (also read the RPM thread,,,,hmmm) so I'm not really concerned about nutrients. Ultimately, the broken down organic matter in my tank doesn't really concern me and, in fact, over time I see it as having desirable physical and chemical properties. Also, possibly some opportunity for denitrification in anaerobic spots too eventually? After nearly 4 months, my gravel looks kind of like an anthill with pods, starfish, spaghetti worms, and a few other critters I have ID'd with the help of the critter threads here. I really don't want to disturb it (any more than my Randall's pistol shrimp does) and it's very nearly the most interesting part of my tank to me.

Am I crazy?

 

[brandon429]

here is the answer:

outcomes vary. doesnt mean its good or bad to store all waste, outcomes vary over time.

cleaner systems vary less, its not bad or good either way.

by vary, I mean invasion, disease health of system. storage can either boost or harm the system based on variables that align differently for people so there's no one best way.

but if you want to be able to predict what a reef tank will do on years 1, 5, 10, 15+ then cleaner systems provide that solely, from a biological perspective. fully sinked systems cannot be predicted, which is why everyone veered away from that in the last decade.

 

[BabyBoyGreene]

Forgot the photo

 

[sde1500]

Switched to an auto water change system bout a year ago now and have done maybe two sand siphons since. Relying mainly on nature, my two large fighting conchs. Honestly, the sand has been way cleaner since I added them 6 months ago than it was at most any point before.

 

[Midrats]

Forgot the photo

Seachem Gray Coast sand? I like the looks of it.

 

[BabyBoyGreene]

Seachem Gray Coast sand? I like the looks of it.

Hawaiian Black Gravel by CaribSea

 

[fish farmer]

Define never....months, years, decades? If you never clean the detritus and it continues to settle it will become a silty/gravelly bed. It will start looking like a clam flat over time.

You are not crazy, you can do what every you wish with your tank.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Hello

From my experience not vacuuming with a good CuC will be ok.

If the gravel, at minimum does not get some type of movement you will end up with cement. I pulled my 10 year old gravel bed last Xmas. The parts of the gravel I could never vacuum or move I had to scrape out in chunks.

I have sand now, I just stir every few days here and there.

 

[BabyBoyGreene]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I think I'm ok with a silty, gravelly bed, I think there's enough action and flow to stir up and export the fine materials. I can't imagine I will live in this house for more than a decade... but at least several more years. If it cements that's ok too I think, it would essentially be like live rock fused to the bottom.

I still don't really understand is the common notion that a "clean" tank is more resistant to change, invasion, disease etc. From what I purport to understand about microbiology I would believe the opposite to be true as long as the water quality is maintained (at an admittedly higher cost/effort). With just about any bio system, the more sanitary you get the more niches there are for opportunistic microbes and parasites... I've seen several posts and vids about ultra clean tanks getting overrun by stuff, but I'm still a newbie in the salt water arena too and I am still weak on the history of the hobby

 

[smartwater101]

There is not enough CUC we can keep in our little pieces of captivity to EVER clear out the cess pool that will build up in the sand.

People have certainly got away with it but it's still a ticking time-bomb that has to the potential of causing a lot of harm.

You may go 5 years with it never being a problem, but the point is why take the risk? Make siphoning, even just a bit, a part of your routine maintenance. It's just not worth the risk.

Edit: remember, CUC is suplimental, they should never be relied on to fix any issue.

 

[BabyBoyGreene]

I might add that while I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before, I also have a Masters in Soil Microbiology so I think I have a decent understanding of organic material decomposition. My thesis was about microbial biomass in reclaimed mine soils and this is partly where my perspective on this comes from. My research showed that the longer the mixed overburden (soils basically tilled to 200 ft) had to recover, the healthier the soils were and directly correlated with the volume of microbial biomass.... I only had 23 years of chronosequence to look at though. I don't understand how highly decomposed organic matter could pose a "threat" to anything except maybe aesthetics... so the CUC does its job and whats left is relatively inert.. and with a high cation exchange capacity it could actually theoretically provide a greater chemical stability. Just thinking out loud...

 

[brandon429]

Baby boy I get what you mean about diversity and competition but the ways aquariums present just won't follow book rules, dynamic change is required to manage what manifests for the masses. They'll report all kinds of death, recycles, and loss if you just track a few five year old dsb systems as they mature. Especially if they ever have to move homes, and disturbing the system is a must.

The best test of any claim is to run it through a works thread. Not that you have to read my verbosity, but scan this for the gold nuggets that are before, during, after pics. And testimony
It's four years of testing in one thread, currently running. All clean method

imagine being presented with that much money of other people's tanks, invasions galore, dsb misbehaving, house moves and using any method other than clean method to run it.

Books and articles from the ocean won't apply much to aquariums we have lost all dilution and skewed all natural balances.

Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...

www.reef2reef.com

Work threads get to make all the rules for aquarium keeping which is awesome. Books are now safezone and highly testable science is given to the layperson.

 

[brandon429]

Someone needs to make a works thread using opposite of clean method. Have classic dsb tanks racked with cyano and diatoms and dinos post up by invite or dare, and the author works the cures live time.

What we do above is easy for nanos and darn hard for large tanks. Developing hands off science is still a very important niche for the hobby as not everyone can just drain and flip their tank clean so easily. All these various methods have a time and place I think

 

[Nano sapiens]

If you have a good deal of activity in a sand bed due to macro organism turnover, then there is the potential for never having to touch the sand bed. This can best be achieved in a large system where larger animals (such as certain larger fish, especially) can do a lot of the substrate stirring (the stirred up detritus can then be captured and removed via various methods) that would otherwise be accomplished by vacuuming. The difficulty with smaller nanos and picos is that we are quite limited as to what we can employ to effectively keep the sand bed friable. Hence the suggestion to do a bit of manual vacuuming at least once in a while.

A detritus clogged sand bed not only contains decaying material that breaks down and adds nutrients to the system, but it also alters the substrate's bacterial community makeup. A friable sand bed harbors aerobic, anoxic and anaerobic bacteria within the micro pores of the sand grains (Jenkins and Kemp, 1984) that can function together in close 'coupling' association to help complete the nitrogen cycle. Although older now, probably the best reference for substrate theory and practice is 'The Reef Aquarium' series of books by Deldeek/Sprung.

 

[Orko]

My tank and sump is over 35 yrs old I have not "cleaned" the substrate or the sump anything that goes over the overflow is in the sump it is about 2inches deep all kinds of critters living in it my tank is a 120g w a 40g sump I keep sps zoos everything tank is very stable and beautiful. I have never ever tested the watering 20 yrs as well.

 

[dryworm]

My tank and sump is over 35 yrs old I have not "cleaned" the substrate or the sump anything that goes over the overflow is in the sump it is about 2inches deep all kinds of critters living in it my tank is a 120g w a 40g sump I keep sps zoos everything tank is very stable and beautiful. I have never ever tested the watering 20 yrs as well.

That's awesome, can we see a picture of your tank?

 

[Orko]

That's awesome, can we see a picture of your tank?

Sure can .. I hve no fancy equipment connected to it I use no filter socks the skimmer is a hob ramora I keep water a little dirty cant see with naked eye but corals love it. Only additives are ESV 2 part and esv iodine and IO salt.
First pic is a small frag rack.. 2nd is the tank a few months back I have an updated one but it will not lt me upload it I will as soon as I can. I got rid of all the yellow colonials they are weeds and sting everything.

 

[dryworm]

Sure can .. I hve no fancy equipment connected to it I use no filter socks the skimmer is a hob ramora I keep water a little dirty cant see with naked eye but corals love it. Only additives are ESV 2 part and esv iodine and IO salt.

For me, that is the ultimate goal is to keep a reef for so long with minimal equipment and maintenance and for inexpensive as possible.

 

[Paul B]

Never is a relative term. I can say I "Never" change my water because in reality I only change it a few times a year.
I can say my fish "Never" die. But the truth is that they do die of old age.
So what is never?

Thats also like saying "I have "Great Success" keeping a Moorish Idol, copperband butterfly or mandarin and we find out you kept those fish for 6 months or a year when they all live over 12 or 15 years.

 

[Orko]

Never is a relative term. I can say I "Never" change my water because in reality I only change it a few times a year.
I can say my fish "Never" die. But the truth is that they do die of old age.
So what is never?

Thats also like saying "I have "Great Success" keeping a Moorish Idol, copperband butterfly or mandarin and we find out you kept those fish for 6 months or a year when they all live over 12 or 15 years.

I did not say I never do water changes I do that I said I have never vacuumed cleaned the sub straight and all the detritus that has made its way to the sump is still there for 30 yrs I have never cleaned that out ever! the pics here are the current tank tken a few days ago.