WHAT THE HECK IS HAPPENING?

mcarroll

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Forgot I did clove oil first...

I am not debating (since I can't know), but my feeling was that their metabolism would give way to shock (and death) long before ice crystals would form.

I do like the thought of clove oil having the effect you describe, but I never felt too confident in its use...seemed there wasn't a good way to gauge the dosage not judge if the fish was being effected the way I imagined. (We'd also use it for minor "surgeries".) And how do we know what the fish is going through between clove oil drip #1 and #50? I mean all we have to judge by is physical activity...not a lot to go on.

I never had a chance to look it up at the time and don't really keep enough fish to worry about it anymore - do you know if there's any science behind the use of clove oil in this way? (I would like the answer to be "yes". :) )
 

mcarroll

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I'm sorry but I 100% disagree with the ich not being able to "work it's magic" if your flow is not high enough. I have a ton of flow through my tank[...]

At the risk of stating the obvious (and realizing you were just stating your case, not looking for advice), flow isn't just about the numbers.

Consider that...
  • Your mp40 is only effective in a 2' sphere right in front of the pump and that ANY obstruction including fish, coral and rocks reduce or block that flow. At/beyond that range its flow is very weak. (Multiple small power heads would probably work better.)
  • Your 1300 gph return pump may be delivering only a fraction of it's nominal flow rate. (You'd want 2x -4x your display volume in my experience - 5x accoding to the theory in this thread. I've never had a problem with the 2x-4x range, but if you're specifically trying to design against ich then 5x+ is your target.)
  • If you have never measured the actual flow delivery into the tank, get a gallon jug and time how long it takes the return to fill it.
  • That is all not to mention how the "1300 gph" is being delivered to the tank. Spray bar? Rotating gadget? "Eductor"? All have their place, but they are not equivalent. There's no guarantee this flow helps at all with dead spots.
$0.02
 

Paranoiattack91

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At the risk of stating the obvious (and realizing you were just stating your case, not looking for advice), flow isn't just about the numbers.

Consider that...
  • Your mp40 is only effective in a 2' sphere right in front of the pump and that ANY obstruction including fish, coral and rocks reduce or block that flow. At/beyond that range its flow is very weak. (Multiple small power heads would probably work better.)
  • Your 1300 gph return pump may be delivering only a fraction of it's nominal flow rate. (You'd want 2x -4x your display volume in my experience - 5x accoding to the theory in this thread. I've never had a problem with the 2x-4x range, but if you're specifically trying to design against ich then 5x+ is your target.)
  • If you have never measured the actual flow delivery into the tank, get a gallon jug and time how long it takes the return to fill it.
  • That is all not to mention how the "1300 gph" is being delivered to the tank. Spray bar? Rotating gadget? "Eductor"? All have their place, but they are not equivalent. There's no guarantee this flow helps at all with dead spots.
$0.02
Really?? Lol. The mp40 (rated at 4,500gph) wasn't all I listed, that's just to hit the backside. the gyre 150 part (rated at 5000 gph) is sitting in the top center. And I'm not sure where you are getting your math on the return, my return is rated at 1352 gph (over 10x the tank turn over rate) and yes I understand head loss pressure but my return is located directly under my tank in sump, not in the basement.
 

Paranoiattack91

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At the risk of stating the obvious (and realizing you were just stating your case, not looking for advice), flow isn't just about the numbers.

Consider that...
  • Your mp40 is only effective in a 2' sphere right in front of the pump and that ANY obstruction including fish, coral and rocks reduce or block that flow. At/beyond that range its flow is very weak. (Multiple small power heads would probably work better.)
  • Your 1300 gph return pump may be delivering only a fraction of it's nominal flow rate. (You'd want 2x -4x your display volume in my experience - 5x accoding to the theory in this thread. I've never had a problem with the 2x-4x range, but if you're specifically trying to design against ich then 5x+ is your target.)
  • If you have never measured the actual flow delivery into the tank, get a gallon jug and time how long it takes the return to fill it.
  • That is all not to mention how the "1300 gph" is being delivered to the tank. Spray bar? Rotating gadget? "Eductor"? All have their place, but they are not equivalent. There's no guarantee this flow helps at all with dead spots.
$0.02
My pumps arent even at 80% because that's as high as I can go while still keeping from blowing around, so I'm pretty sure there's not much more I can do when it comes to flow. Just speaking from firsthand experience.
 

Humblefish

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any thoughts on the bayer pesticide that people dip their corals in? when i start adding new corals to my tank again should i just QT them for an extended ammount of time as well? or will the bayer pesticide dispose of the ich as well as red bugs, nudibranchs etc etc

Bayer seems to work pretty well on coral pests, but I highly doubt it can eradicate parasite tomonts. Since not even copper can do that.
 
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garra671

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Bayer seems to work pretty well on coral pests, but I highly doubt it can eradicate parasite tomonts. Since not even copper can do that.

bayer attacks the nervous system though correct? theoretically ich is a living animal with a nervous system? do you think even with changing the plug out and dipping the coral in bayer and then reattaching to my own plug i would still have a chance of bringing ich/velvet into my system?
 

omykiss001

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bayer attacks the nervous system though correct? theoretically ich is a living animal with a nervous system? do you think even with changing the plug out and dipping the coral in bayer and then reattaching to my own plug i would still have a chance of bringing ich/velvet into my system?

Cryptocaryon irritans is a single celled ciliate. It does not have a nervous system that is a specialized tissue found in multicellular animals. The compound in bug killer may still be toxic, but I don't think any study has been done to show efficacy on anything other than arthropods, in the case of reef tanks red bugs/copepods which are crustaceans. Depending on mode of action might also kill mollusks like snails and nudibranchs.
 

Reeftech

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I've seen Bayer kill red bugs and nudibranchs with my own eyes. But that was just my experience with using bayer. Does that happen to everyone that uses can't say.
 

mcarroll

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Really?? Lol. The mp40 (rated at 4,500gph) wasn't all I listed, that's just to hit the backside. the gyre 150 part (rated at 5000 gph) is sitting in the top center. And I'm not sure where you are getting your math on the return, my return is rated at 1352 gph (over 10x the tank turn over rate) and yes I understand head loss pressure but my return is located directly under my tank in sump, not in the basement.

I didn't say anything unserious, sorry you're choosing to take it that way.

Your MP 40 performs as I say it does, you can look up video to see it for yourself. The reason I brought it up is that the backside of your tank is much larger than 2 feet and it is really obstructed by rock. :)

If you cannot find a flow curve for your pump, you literally have to measure the output to have any idea what flow you are really getting. I assure you it is not close to the nominal flow rate. :)

LOL!

And remember the only point was that it's not as simple as the numbers.
 
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cmcoker

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bayer attacks the nervous system though correct? theoretically ich is a living animal with a nervous system? do you think even with changing the plug out and dipping the coral in bayer and then reattaching to my own plug i would still have a chance of bringing ich/velvet into my system?
Just as an example, how just because it kills one, it doesn't necessarily kill them all:

Imidacloprid is the active ingredient in the Bayer pesticide we use to dip.

Imidacloprid is also the flea killer in Advantage flea control products for dogs and cats (also made by Bayer), and is a very effective flea killer.

However, Imidacloprid does not kill ticks they have to add another ingredient to target ticks.

It also doesn't kill our pets, or us.
 

Paranoiattack91

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I didn't say anything unserious, sorry you're choosing to take it that way.

Your MP 40 performs as I say it does, you can look up video to see it for yourself. The reason I brought it up is that the backside of your tank is much larger than 2 feet and it is really obstructed by rock. :)

If you cannot find a flow curve for your pump, you literally have to measure the output to have any idea what flow you are really getting. I assure you it is not close to the nominal flow rate. :)

LOL!

And remember the only point was that it's not as simple as the numbers.
The mp 40 is not my main source of flow, That's why I have a gyre 150 also. And a 1300 gph return in a 120 is way more than what is recommended for a tank my size, even with head loss. I'm unsure of what point you are trying to make. You made a statement saying that lack of flow is a causing factor of ich. I simply stated that I have had ich (prior to using a qt) and have as much flow as possible without blowing sand all over.
 

Paranoiattack91

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...that it's not as simple as the numbers on the surface.
Any more flow and my sand doesn't stay on the bottom of the tank. It's large grain sand. No more flow is possible. Not sure how many more pumps/powerheads you expect to see in a 48 in long aquarium.
 

mcarroll

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First, I have no expectations - this is all hypothetical. Just talking about the situation. It's all good - mental exercise is all. :cool:

Here's the list of stuff about to be covered:
  • Lies, dang Lies, and Advertised Numbers
  • A Silly Example
  • "Good Flow" Is Ephemeral
  • Who Needs Sand?
  • You Asked For It! Wait, No You Didn't!
  • Hints
Without further ado...

Lies, dang Lies, and Advertised Numbers
If you want to think that numbers (advertised numbers, no less) tell the story - that you have 10,000 gph, or whatever - look at a more extreme example to see how that is definitely not the case.

A Silly Example
If your return flow and both power heads were all moved to the same corner of the tank, would you still be trying to tell me that your flow was good enough because the pump's numbers still add up? I don't think you would because now it's obvious there's more to it than adding up the flow numbers.

"Good Flow" Is Ephemeral
Same thing can be happening in otherwise normal situations though - for lots of reasons. It can be surprising for anyone - especially when dead spots develop in a tank known to have good flow by the numbers.

For example, what happens to your flow when you add rock? Fish? Corals? Sand? What happens when those corals double in size? Triple?

Flow is reduced as turbulence increases in each and every case. Voila! Welcome to your brand new dead zones! One behind every nook or cranny! And guess where your fish take up to sleep? The nooks and crannies where flow is the least.

Who Needs Sand?
It's apparent that sand is your limiting factor for flow - at least with your current equipment. It's likewise worth noting that sand is not generally found near high-energy reefs for the exact same reason. The flow carries everything away that's isn't bolted down! ;)

So there's nothing all that natural about a sand bed in a high energy reef kind of tank. Yes people do it, but I think most are only considering filtration concerns or at most the needs for a specialist fish habitat - not so much flow or corals.

FWIW, I have one tank with and one without a sand bed. I'm not sure either would have a sand bed if I were starting over.

You Asked For It! Wait, No You Didn't!
Again, I recognize you weren't asking for advice and I'm about to give some anyway: ;)

I don't think there's anything wrong with your flow strategy....but I think there are better pumps you could use to pull it off. According to me, it would probably be more pumps, but not sure if the "overall flow number" would go up or down.

Hints
I'm mostly not talking about the gyre. Also, I don't really consider return flow as a factor for the corals in most tanks like yours. The return flow from the sump should be insignificant next to the flow from powerheads (which yours undoubtedly is). It only takes one tiny powerhead to trump the flow from even bigger returns than yours. A larger powerhead (like both of yours) will trump return flow by at least an order of magnitude when ideally deployed.
 

Paranoiattack91

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First, I have no expectations - this is all hypothetical. Just talking about the situation. It's all good - mental exercise is all. :cool:

Here's the list of stuff about to be covered:
  • Lies, **** Lies, and Advertised Numbers
  • A Silly Example
  • "Good Flow" Is Ephemeral
  • Who Needs Sand?
  • You Asked For It! Wait, No You Didn't!
  • Hints
Without further ado...

Lies, **** Lies, and Advertised Numbers
If you want to think that numbers (advertised numbers, no less) tell the story - that you have 10,000 gph, or whatever - look at a more extreme example to see how that is definitely not the case.

A Silly Example
If your return flow and both power heads were all moved to the same corner of the tank, would you still be trying to tell me that your flow was good enough because the pump's numbers still add up? I don't think you would because now it's obvious there's more to it than adding up the flow numbers.

"Good Flow" Is Ephemeral
Same thing can be happening in otherwise normal situations though - for lots of reasons. It can be surprising for anyone - especially when dead spots develop in a tank known to have good flow by the numbers.

For example, what happens to your flow when you add rock? Fish? Corals? Sand? What happens when those corals double in size? Triple?

Flow is reduced as turbulence increases in each and every case. Voila! Welcome to your brand new dead zones! One behind every nook or cranny! And guess where your fish take up to sleep? The nooks and crannies where flow is the least.

Who Needs Sand?
It's apparent that sand is your limiting factor for flow - at least with your current equipment. It's likewise worth noting that sand is not generally found near high-energy reefs for the exact same reason. The flow carries everything away that's isn't bolted down! ;)

So there's nothing all that natural about a sand bed in a high energy reef kind of tank. Yes people do it, but I think most are only considering filtration concerns or at most the needs for a specialist fish habitat - not so much flow or corals.

FWIW, I have one tank with and one without a sand bed. I'm not sure either would have a sand bed if I were starting over.

You Asked For It! Wait, No You Didn't!
Again, I recognize you weren't asking for advice and I'm about to give some anyway: ;)

I don't think there's anything wrong with your flow strategy....but I think there are better pumps you could use to pull it off. According to me, it would probably be more pumps, but not sure if the "overall flow number" would go up or down.

Hints
I'm mostly not talking about the gyre. Also, I don't really consider return flow as a factor for the corals in most tanks like yours. The return flow from the sump should be insignificant next to the flow from powerheads (which yours undoubtedly is). It only takes one tiny powerhead to trump the flow from even bigger returns than yours. A larger powerhead (like both of yours) will trump return flow by at least an order of magnitude when ideally deployed.
Lol. Guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. A gyre 150, mp40 and a pump with well over 10 times a tank turnover rate is more than enough water movement for a tank that is only 48 inches long, many successful tanks run with much less. Fact- I used to have ich in my tank often before using proper qt methods. Fact- I no longer deal with ich now that all fish are qt'd.
 

mcarroll

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Lol. Guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree. A gyre 150, mp40 and a pump with well over 10 times a tank turnover rate is more than enough water movement for a tank that is only 48 inches long, many successful tanks run with much less. Fact- I used to have ich in my tank often before using proper qt methods. Fact- I no longer deal with ich now that all fish are qt'd.

We'd have to meet at least on the points being brought up for you to disagree, so I'm sorry but I literally cannot agree to disagree. LOL.

You are restating that the numbers (printed on the pump boxes) tell all the story you need to hear. How about I just agree to agree with this?

The funny part (to me) is that I was never disagreeing with your original post or criticizing your flow situation. You seem bound to see nothing in my comments but that, however. :D:p:D:p ...merely commenting on some of the facts of your setup (a pump on the back wall will be hampered by rocks) or equipment (certain pumps have certain characteristics) and the vagueries inherent to "good flow". On that topic, someone else may find this interesting.

If it helps, I'm glad you are still ich-free and a happy QT'er. Sorry to have bothered you.

I'm exhausted!!
 

Paranoiattack91

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Lol, I was never bothered, why would I be? My tank is healthy from first hand experience. I was just trying to give this guy the first hand experience that I personally have had. I dealt with ich and regular fish loss often before using a qt and just bringing any random fish into my tank immediately. Now I qt and don't deal with those problems (both with the same amount of flow). Pretty sure many people would agree with me that proper qt is an effective method. Also, many people have dealt with ich in a tank with plenty of flow. Just trying to help this guy out with proven methods.
 
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garra671

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Lol, I was never bothered, why would I be? My tank is healthy from first hand experience. I was just trying to give this guy the first hand experience that I personally have had. I dealt with ich and regular fish loss often before using a qt and just bringing any random fish into my tank immediately. Now I qt and don't deal with those problems (both with the same amount of flow). Pretty sure many people would agree with me that proper qt is an effective method. Also, many people have dealt with ich in a tank with plenty of flow. Just trying to help this guy out with proven methods.

Do you QT your corals as well? And if so do you have a separate tank from your fish QT for it? And how long do you QT a coral for?
 
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garra671

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@robert @Humblefish whats the difference between cupermine and paraguard? ive tried looking at the info on seachems website and ive tried googling it but all i can find on every answer is that

cupermine eradicates diseases such as blah blah blah

paraguard is best used on new additions to your tank and qurantine tank to ensure your fish do not get diseases.

also when i look on the webpage is shows a lil checkmark next to the types of diseases the medication works with and paraguard has everything checked off where as cuermine only has "parasitic" on its check mark list not fungal,bacterial and viral like the paraguard one does. I ask because paraguard i dont believe uses copper like cupermine does, and im kind of scared to use copper in my QT as im a noobie to it. will both destroy ich/velvet? (i already bought the cupermine on a whim, but just want some info is all)
 
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melypr1985

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Here's some quick info on copper and how to use is. I'm sure the other guys can fill you in on paraguard. I'm not too familiar with that med and humble doesn't have a quick reference like this one that I can post for you.

Copper: Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans), Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly Uronema marinum

How To Treat - First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Cupramine is fully charged (ionic) copper, and has a therapeutic range of 0.35-0.5 mg/L or ppm. You would use a Seachem or Salifert copper test kit for Cupramine, as those are capable of reading copper in the low range. Coppersafe, on the other hand, is chelated copper. It has a much higher therapeutic range of 1.5-2.0 mg/L or ppm. As such, you need a “total copper test kit” such as API’s to measure Coppersafe.

Standard copper treatment lasts 30 consecutive days. The reason it takes so long is copper only targets the “free swimming stage” (the same holds true for all chemical treatments & hypo). While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of ich have prolonged life cycles. Indeed, even 30 days may not be long enough in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.

Therapeutic copper levels must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock starts all over again. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; those should not be used in the presence of copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish.

Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, it is wise to raise your copper level very slowly (over 3-5 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hours recommended on the labels. Doing so increases your odds of successfully treating a “copper sensitive” fish. Remove copper after 30 days by running activated carbon.

Pros - Readily available

Cons/Side Effects - Appetite suppression is a common side effect. If a fish stops eating, don’t add more copper until he resumes. If the fish is still not eating after 2-3 days, start doing water changes (lowering the copper concentration) until he eats. If this happens a second time after you resume raising the copper, you’ll know you’ve encountered a “copper sensitive” fish and an alternative treatment should be used instead. Some species of fish, such as angels, puffers, lions and mandarins are notoriously difficult to treat with copper.
 
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