WHAT THE HECK IS HAPPENING?

[robert]

Yes - fish can harbor ich and/or velvet and be asymtomatic...but they cannot be carriers in the traditional sense as the ich MUST still go through its life-cycle to persist in the tank. That means they MUST drop, encyst hatch and re-infect their host.

As the studies on immunity show - no trophonts were detected dropping from infected fish @3 months and because of this, the life cycle cannot complete. Even at 6 months - as the temporary immunity fades (which it won't if its still encountering ich). The reproduction rate of ich is below the replacement threshold, meaning ich is on its way to extinction.

Additionally, in isolate studies - it is very difficult to get ich any isolate if ich to persist beyound 11 months - even if it is continually fed a diet of susceptiple non-immune fish...the average isolate dies off much sooner.

And finally if you could actually see ich and velvet and watch their movements - you would see what is wrong with your tank and why I keep saying - lethal ich or velvet is a symptom of a mis-configured system. If your tank has adequate flow and circulation - ich will never build to lethal levels...but I'll take that one up in another thread.

 

[Humblefish]

That's how ich came to my tank. Chances are low until it happens to you [emoji13]

Just isolating corals/inverts away from fish for 30 days puts the odds in your favor. Of course, longer is better and puts the odds even more in your favor. Crustaceans should be safe after their first molt.

 

[robert]

Finally - I do keep some high end fish..,while I try to see them before purchase, on occassion it is not possible. I once had a black tang come in beat-to-hell and coverred with ich. You bet he went into the best, healthiest system I had going...the one which would provide the best chance for his survival - my display.

Full recovery - no other losses - still have him.

I would be hard pressed to put some of my corals in anything other than my primary display - a 70+ day quarantine (or even a 30 day quarantine) in anything but the best system I can provide would be a death sentence for more an unacceptable number of them.
This is not practical - and is only necessary when you truly do not understand what ich is and how it operates.

 

[garra671]

Finally - I do keep some high end fish..,while I try to see them before purchase, on occassion it is not possible. I once had a black tang come in beat-to-hell and coverred with ich. You bet he went into the best, healthiest system I had going...the one which would provide the best chance for his survival - my display.

Full recovery - no other losses - still have him.

I would be hard pressed to put some of my corals in anything other than my primary display - a 70+ day quarantine (or even a 30 day quarantine) in anything but the best system I can provide would be a death sentence for more an unacceptable number of them.
This is not practical - and is only necessary when you truly do not understand what ich is and how it operates.

@robert @Humblefish well i can certainly say i have no idea how ich works. i mean i understand the life style but from what im understanding EVERYTHING SHOULD BE QURANTINED BEFORE PUT INTO MY NEW DISPLAY what if i get an anenome that was attached to a rock? or a starfish? i cant exactly QT stuff like that. does the dip (insect killer bayers brand i think) that people use on corals to dip them before putting into the tank kill off ich as well?

 

[MatsReef]

what if i get an anenome that was attached to a rock? or a starfish?

EVERYTHING SHOULD BE QURANTINED BEFORE PUT INTO MY NEW DISPLAY

You've answered your own question my friend. If it's wet- quarantine it.

 

[garra671]

You've answered your own question my friend. If it's wet- quarantine it.

so no matter what i get 72 day fallow period in a QT tank (if its not a fish and cant be medically treated for a quick fix)

 

[robert]

In the ideal world yes - you would quarantine everything - not just for ich and velvet, but for the any myraid of possible pathogens you might introduce.

But in the practical world no - you may dip - you may medicate - but many of the specimens you'll aquire will be difficult enough to keep alive in your display - much less in a "less than ideal" quarantine.

I've got well over 100 corals - 50 - 60 anenomes - clams - some fish that cost way more than a pedigree dog....I don't quarantine.
In the past year I've lost more fish to the carpet than I have to ich or velvet in the past 10 years.

Your dealing with ich now - it was probably introduced with a new fish. If your tank was set up to deal with it (maybe it is) you would be watching - feeding - but wouldn't be worrying about your fish dying.

 

[grizzlymint]

if you have Ich you could have spent the last half of this thread mixing water for your 17gallon to put your fish in until you get on craigslist and buy a 40 breeder for 20$ to move them into.

 

[garra671]

In the ideal world yes - you would quarantine everything - not just for ich and velvet, but for the any myraid of possible pathogens you might introduce.

But in the practical world no - you may dip - you may medicate - but many of the specimens you'll aquire will be difficult enough to keep alive in your display - much less in a "less than ideal" quarantine.

I've got well over 100 corals - 50 - 60 anenomes - clams - some fish that cost way more than a pedigree dog....I don't quarantine.
In the past year I've lost more fish to the carpet than I have to ich or velvet in the past 10 years.

Your dealing with ich now - it was probably introduced with a new fish. If your tank was set up to deal with it (maybe it is) you would be watching - feeding - but wouldn't be worrying about your fish dying.

i have been watching the feeding, and he is still perfectly fine and healthy and fat. i just hate watching him itch on the rocks and everything at night. what do you consider the "manage ich"? i know you said high flow which i gurantee i have. what else manages it?

 

[robert]

Watch your fish tonight - after the lights are off - go in a see where its bedding down for the night.

Examine that spot carefully. Is there any deutritus collecting there? If so you have a dead spot and will need to adjust your flow so that deutritus never collects where your fish want to sleep. You probably want to take your time getting your flow worked out - but for the short term - take a spare powerhead or whatever you have and direct it into that location. Your fish will likely find another place to sleep -

Ich is very slow - how slow? Count to 10. In that amount of time a ich can swim 1/2 an inch. They really only get to your fish when they are bedded down for the evening. They also drop off in the evening when your fish is bedded down. Any flow will greatly reduce the chance that any ich can find your fish. Break up these areas through dispersion.

Look at the turn over in your tank. what I mean by turnover is the number of GPH that leaves your tank to the sump - not the internal flow. Whatever pump your running - derate it taking into account the plumbing and height. If you don't know the answer - figure half of what the pump is rated for. Lets say you have a 100 gallon tank and a 1000 GPH pump...you've probably not got a 10x turn over - probably closer to 5x. When you get a chance - upgrade that.

Last - nothing to do tonight - decide on what you want to keep. You've got a mix of fish that might cause you more work keeping your tank ich free. Tangs don't need the substrate - but your goby does. Maybe not the best combination...doable...but it will limit the amount of flow you can put accross the bottom without blowing substrate.

If you want to keep gobies, then keep the substrate and ditch the tang...everything is a trade off.

Lastly - if get yourself a 10" 5 micron string wound sediment filter next time your at home depot - a two pack is $7. Cap one end and attach the other to the a spare pump...drop it in your dt close to the bottom. Even this will take out ich any free swimming ich or velvet....try and get a 5x turnover or better. A 1000gph pump from amazon will set you back $25. But this simple device will strip 99.9% of the free swimmng ich in under two hours. (assuming 100g tank)

Last - do what you've been doing - keep your fish fed...Not a complete list - just some stuff thats easy and will make a big difference on how fast this crisis passes.

Simple husbandry in this hobby is almost dead - everyone wants the perfect reef in a bottle - its more than that.

 

[garra671]

Watch your fish tonight - after the lights are off - go in a see where its bedding down for the night.

Examine that spot carefully. Is there any deutritus collecting there? If so you have a dead spot and will need to adjust your flow so that deutritus never collects where your fish want to sleep. You probably want to take your time getting your flow worked out - but for the short term - take a spare powerhead or whatever you have and direct it into that location. Your fish will likely find another place to sleep -

Ich is very slow - how slow? Count to 10. In that amount of time a ich can swim 1/2 an inch. They really only get to your fish when they are bedded down for the evening. They also drop off in the evening when your fish is bedded down. Any flow will greatly reduce the chance that any ich can find your fish. Break up these areas through dispersion.

Look at the turn over in your tank. what I mean by turnover is the number of GPH that leaves your tank to the sump - not the internal flow. Whatever pump your running - derate it taking into account the plumbing and height. If you don't know the answer - figure half of what the pump is rated for. Lets say you have a 100 gallon tank and a 1000 GPH pump...you've probably not got a 10x turn over - probably closer to 5x. When you get a chance - upgrade that.

Last - nothing to do tonight - decide on what you want to keep. You've got a mix of fish that might cause you more work keeping your tank ich free. Tangs don't need the substrate - but your goby does. Maybe not the best combination...doable...but it will limit the amount of flow you can put accross the bottom without blowing substrate.

If you want to keep gobies, then keep the substrate and ditch the tang...everything is a trade off.

Lastly - if get yourself a 10" 5 micron string wound sediment filter next time your at home depot - a two pack is $7. Cap one end and attach the other to the a spare pump...drop it in your dt close to the bottom. Even this will take out ich any free swimming ich or velvet....try and get a 5x turnover or better. A 1000gph pump from amazon will set you back $25. But this simple device will strip 99.9% of the free swimmng ich in under two hours. (assuming 100g tank)

Last - do what you've been doing - keep your fish fed...Not a complete list - just some stuff thats easy and will make a big difference on how fast this crisis passes.

Simple husbandry in this hobby is almost dead - everyone wants the perfect reef in a bottle - its more than that.

he sleeps in probably one of the higher flow areas (unless hes stirring up the sand) i have an mp40 directly on the other side of the tank shooting behind the rear rocks (he sleeps behind a large rock at the left rear corner) at the front left corner i have another mp40 so thats pulled water from where he sleeps also. so i know he isnt sleeping in a dead flow area. the only 2 dead spots i know of are at the front of the tank in the 2 corners left and right. and i try to stir those up reguraly

 

[robert]

Where ever he sleeps direct a spare powerhead there. The ich drops off him while he sleeps - and will reattach while he sleeps - it cannot chase him around the tank - not possible. After it hatches - ich has about 6 hours before its ability to infect begins to wane...if it doesn't get your fish while its sleeping. The odds of it finding your fish drop tremendously.

Even if you decide to run quarantine - use eggcrate to keep the fish up off the bottom 6" or so. It will increase the contact time between the ich and copper substantially. Its simple math.

 

[robert]

When ich drops from your fish it falls at a rate of ~15meters/hour. Usually its fairly confined to the area in which your fish sleeps - if it blows - which it can - much will end up where the deutritus collects...keep these areas cleaned out by siphoning.

You have to stay on it for a bit - but in 14-20 days your fish will develop a substantial immunity which will carry him through many, many ich lifecycles - I've never had an issue with recurrance. Others will say you will - I've never seen anything but opinions in this regard.

 

[garra671]

When ich drops from your fish it falls at a rate of ~15meters/hour. Usually its fairly confined to the area in which your fish sleeps - if it blows - which it can - much will end up where the deutritus collects...keep these areas cleaned out by siphoning.

You have to stay on it for a bit - but in 14-20 days your fish will develop a substantial immunity which will carry him through many, many ich lifecycles - I've never had an issue with recurrance. Others will say you will - I've never seen anything but opinions in this regard.

yeh thats the thing ive never seen one of my fish get ich twice. they either die from it, or they fight it off the first time around and they end up just not getting it when the other inhabitants do. right now all i can do is manage it until i have room to set up a qurantine. hell maybe ill just transfer everything to the larger tank im going to end up getting, and use my current tank as the qurantine.

 

[garra671]

@robert @Humblefish

any thoughts on the bayer pesticide that people dip their corals in? when i start adding new corals to my tank again should i just QT them for an extended ammount of time as well? or will the bayer pesticide dispose of the ich as well as red bugs, nudibranchs etc etc

 

[Isaac Alves]

You could dip the tang in 1 liter tank water with 5ml h202 for 30 mins. You will see those ruptures fall off too.

However id even wait if hes eating good. I would use it for really bad situations. My fish was way worse than yours and lived. You can even dose the tank with h202.

Heres a thread with success dosing in the tank for velvet, even worse than ich:
http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/283706-hydrogen-peroxide-to-treat-velvet/

I just read the article you referenced in your link. One of the posts mentioned euthanizing a clown that was suffering badly. What are the humane methods of euthanization with fish? I've never even thought about it before, but makes sense as the animal is beyond healing and is suffering.

 

[mcarroll]

I'm also interested to hear other peoples opinions...

I've always gone with the put them in the bag of water and put the bag of water in the freezer method. I'm sure there are downsides to this, but I'm pretty sure there are downsides to all methods of euthanasia.

Possibly the most humane method, but least likely I will ever try, is to throw the fish up against the wall or on the ground as hard as possible for an instant kill.

 

[garra671]

I'm also interested to hear other peoples opinions...

I've always gone with the put them in the bag of water and put the bag of water in the freezer method. I'm sure there are downsides to this, but I'm pretty sure there are downsides to all methods of euthanasia.

Possibly the most humane method, but least likely I will ever try, is to throw the fish up against the wall or on the ground as hard as possible for an instant kill.

dont freeze them, it hurts them more than you can imagine. it causes the water that they are covered in to crystalize and freeze. @mcarroll use clove oil. it puts them to sleep and then you just keep adding more of it to eventually kill them in their sleep.

 

[Paranoiattack91]

I'm sorry but I 100% disagree with the ich not being able to "work it's magic" if your flow is not high enough. I have a ton of flow through my tank, 1300 gph return pump in my in my 120 gallon tank, gyre 150, and mp40 hitting behind the rock work. Yes, you may get lucky and do great for some time without a qt just like I did. All it takes is one fish to introduce something that the others can't fight off. That is what happened to me, I lost a mystery wrasse, purple tang, Midas blenny, chevron tang and dejardini sailfin all within a week. I now run a qt tank and have not had any similar issues thus far.

 

[Paranoiattack91]

And after