What went wrong with my QT?

[SaltlifeHokie]

Hey guys I lost 2 clownfish last night/early this morning. I had them in QT for 30 days and they died which seemed weird. Here is the run down of everything.

Day 1- Safety Stop and added them to the QT tank
Day 3- Started Copper Power slowing ramping up to 2.25
Day 23- starting showing what I thought was early stages of Brook. You could barely see a white dust/spots on them only if the light was hitting it right.
Day 23- Took them out and did a 90 min Ruby Reef Rally Pro Bath and transferred them into another sterile QT tank and started treating with General Cure
Day 25- 2nd dose of General Cure
Day 27- 25% water change and ran Carbon
Day 28- Started Copper Power again
Day 29- Ruby Reef Rally Pro H2o2 bath
Day 30- Both dead.

A few things of note. I've had a foxface in with them the whole time and he hasn't shown any issues of Brook or Velvet. After 4-5 days of them not getting better with General Cure I assumed maybe it wasn't brook and was velvet so I started Copper again and then 36 hours later they are dead. The clowns were coming to the surface vertically gasping for air and swimming lethargic and wouldn't eat the last 3-4 days or so. For the first 3 weeks or so they were happy/healthy and doing great and then all the sudden I saw what I thought was Brook. Last night as a last ditch effort I did a Ruby Reef Bath and H2o2 bath and 1 clown died in the bath and the other died over night. There is a sponge filter in there, HOB filter and was even running a powerhead so I don't think it was an oxygen issue. Neither clown was covered bad and that's what made it difficult to diagnose. I wasn't like the Brook was in the later stages or when Velvet absolutely covers the fish. Whatever it had seemed to be a very minor case but I guess it was enough to kill them. Foxface seems just fine today too. Any advice or ideas would be appreciated.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey guys I lost 2 clownfish last night/early this morning. I had them in QT for 30 days and they died which seemed weird. Here is the run down of everything.

Day 1- Safety Stop and added them to the QT tank
Day 3- Started Copper Power slowing ramping up to 2.25
Day 23- starting showing what I thought was early stages of Brook. You could barely see a white dust/spots on them only if the light was hitting it right.
Day 23- Took them out and did a 90 min Ruby Reef Rally Pro Bath and transferred them into another sterile QT tank and started treating with General Cure
Day 25- 2nd dose of General Cure
Day 27- 25% water change and ran Carbon
Day 28- Started Copper Power again
Day 29- Ruby Reef Rally Pro H2o2 bath
Day 30- Both dead.

A few things of note. I've had a foxface in with them the whole time and he hasn't shown any issues of Brook or Velvet. After 4-5 days of them not getting better with General Cure I assumed maybe it wasn't brook and was velvet so I started Copper again and then 36 hours later they are dead. The clowns were coming to the surface vertically gasping for air and wouldn't eat the last 3-4 days or so. For the first 3 weeks or so they were happy/healthy and doing great and then all the sudden I saw what I thought was Brook. Last night as a last ditch effort I did a Ruby Reef Bath and H2o2 bath and 1 clown died in the bath and the other died over night. There is a sponge filter in there, HOB filter and was even running a powerhead so I don't think it was an oxygen issue. Neither clown was covered bad and that's what made it difficult to diagnose. I wasn't like the Brook was in the later stages or when Velvet absolutely covers the fish. Whatever it had seemed to be a very minor case but I guess it was enough to kill them. Foxface seems just fine today too. Any advice or ideas would be appreciated.

A few things I see-
While coincidence, safety stop is not a cure and is a disinfectant which I feel is often temporary.
You then went to copper and never completed the recommended full 30 day cycle. In addition you ramped up the copper product and ramping up is not recommended. Increasing copper level slowly can allow a given disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease. You want to get to the full treatment level as soon as possible. Ramping copper is old information, based on using ionic copper. You then went to acriflavine ( ruby rally) for 2 days in which it take 2-3 days for ruby to start working then jumped to general cure which is Prazi and Metro for 4 days, went back to copper- which should have resulted in more losses and lethargic behavior
I suggest Verifying what you have ( pics and videos will help) and starting with the most essential at full dose and treatment.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey guys I lost 2 clownfish last night/early this morning. I had them in QT for 30 days and they died which seemed weird. Here is the run down of everything.

Day 1- Safety Stop and added them to the QT tank
Day 3- Started Copper Power slowing ramping up to 2.25
Day 23- starting showing what I thought was early stages of Brook. You could barely see a white dust/spots on them only if the light was hitting it right.
Day 23- Took them out and did a 90 min Ruby Reef Rally Pro Bath and transferred them into another sterile QT tank and started treating with General Cure
Day 25- 2nd dose of General Cure
Day 27- 25% water change and ran Carbon
Day 28- Started Copper Power again
Day 29- Ruby Reef Rally Pro H2o2 bath
Day 30- Both dead.

A few things of note. I've had a foxface in with them the whole time and he hasn't shown any issues of Brook or Velvet. After 4-5 days of them not getting better with General Cure I assumed maybe it wasn't brook and was velvet so I started Copper again and then 36 hours later they are dead. The clowns were coming to the surface vertically gasping for air and swimming lethargic and wouldn't eat the last 3-4 days or so. For the first 3 weeks or so they were happy/healthy and doing great and then all the sudden I saw what I thought was Brook. Last night as a last ditch effort I did a Ruby Reef Bath and H2o2 bath and 1 clown died in the bath and the other died over night. There is a sponge filter in there, HOB filter and was even running a powerhead so I don't think it was an oxygen issue. Neither clown was covered bad and that's what made it difficult to diagnose. I wasn't like the Brook was in the later stages or when Velvet absolutely covers the fish. Whatever it had seemed to be a very minor case but I guess it was enough to kill them. Foxface seems just fine today too. Any advice or ideas would be appreciated.

Sorry to hear - because the foxface doesn't have any symptoms, I think you can rule out velvet. Brooklynella is very difficult to treat without formalin.....

Jay

 

[SaltlifeHokie]

A few things I see-
While coincidence, safety stop is not a cure and is a disinfectant which I feel is often temporary.
You then went to copper and never completed the recommended full 30 day cycle. In addition you ramped up the copper product and ramping up is not recommended. Increasing copper level slowly can allow a given disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease. You want to get to the full treatment level as soon as possible. Ramping copper is old information, based on using ionic copper. You then went to acriflavine ( ruby rally) for 2 days in which it take 2-3 days for ruby to start working then jumped to general cure which is Prazi and Metro for 4 days, went back to copper- which should have resulted in more losses and lethargic behavior
I suggest Verifying what you have ( pics and videos will help) and starting with the most essential at full dose and treatment.

My understanding is transferring them into a new sterilize QT after 14 days is an acceptable way to treat Ich/Velvet? According to Humblefish. The Ruby Reef was a 90 min bath before I put them in the new QT tank. When I put them into the new QT tank with fresh non medicated saltwater that's when I dosed General Cure. I thought the combination of the Ruby Bath and then treating with General Cure would kick the Brook. I feel like it was Brook that got them.

 

[Uncle99]

A lot of stuff going on there.

What where you treating for originally? We’re you a sure on your diagnosis? Some of those treatments I have no idea what is them?

I can’t figure why reefers toss new fish into QT, which is stressful, then add medications and treatments to treat something just in case?

Sometimes the stress placed upon fish with medications is the cause of death IMM.

I have never once treated a new fish in QT, unless after observation, I am certain what I am treating, then, only applying the documented treatments used by reefers for decades.

In more than 40 years adding new fish, only once did a fish, a clown show ick spots and hypo cleared that fast.

Some displayed weird behaviors at times, but in the end, they came on board.

Does that mean no treat?

No, but like a doctor, we want to treat correctly.

 

[vetteguy53081]

My understanding is transferring them into a new sterilize QT after 14 days is an acceptable way to treat Ich/Velvet? According to Humblefish. The Ruby Reef was a 90 min bath before I put them in the new QT tank. When I put them into the new QT tank with fresh non medicated saltwater that's when I dosed General Cure. I thought the combination of the Ruby Bath and then treating with General Cure would kick the Brook. I feel like it was Brook that got them.

Ruby alone will kick brooklynella but was never really given a chance. Most quarantine is 30 days in lieu of 14 as 14 days is not enough to address the various life stages of protozoans. Ruby as mentioned is acriflavine and works well as a bath but a bath is a pre-quarantine method and not a treatment. If brook, you will see heavy breathing, lethargic behavior, hiding, loss of appetite and unusual swimming behavior in addition to heavy slime on their bodies and even bacterial lesions often confused with ich

 

[SaltlifeHokie]

A lot of stuff going on there.

What where you treating for originally?
I can’t figure why reefers toss new fish into QT, which is stressful, then add medications and treatments to treat something just in case?

I have never once treated a new fish in QT, unless after observation, I am certain what I am treating, then, only applying the documented treatments used by reefers for decades.

In more than 40 years adding new fish, only once did a fish, a clown show ick spots and hypo cleared that fast.

Not getting into that argument lol. They were new fish I bought and decided to preventively QT them. Foxface came from a good supplier. Clowns I bought from a less reputable LFS so decided starting them in Copper would be ideal.

 

[SaltlifeHokie]

Ruby alone will kick brooklynella but was never really given a chance. Most quarantine is 30 days in lieu of 14 as 14 days is not enough to address the various life stages of protozoans. Ruby as mentioned is acriflavine and works well as a bath but a bath is a pre-quarantine method and not a treatment. If brook, you will see heavy breathing, lethargic behavior, hiding, loss of appetite and unusual swimming behavior in addition to heavy slime on their bodies and even bacterial lesions often confused with ich

So are you suggesting to dose the QT tank next time with Ruby as opposed to a 90 min bath if I have Brook again?

 

[Uncle99]

Not getting into that argument lol. They were new fish I bought and decided to preventively QT them. Foxface came from a good supplier. Clowns I bought from a less reputable LFS so decided starting them in Copper would be ideal.

No argument, you do the things you believe are correct.

Me, I found great food, low stress QT, resulted in a more positive outcome.

And maybe just lucky.

Cheers.

 

[MnFish1]

So are you suggesting to dose the QT tank next time with Ruby as opposed to a 90 min bath if I have Brook again?

I think one of the problems is that you did not follow a protocol - (at least the protocol we recommend here) - I don't know exactly what Humblefish recommends. But you asked the question what was the problem with your quarantine. Besides what @vetteguy53081 mentioned, IMO - when you had used copper (even though at a slightly low dose) - and the fish developed what looked like brooklynella, you did not stop the other medications and then treat for brooklynella (at least not adequately). This is not meant to be 'mean' - but I believe it answers your question. Next time - I would follow the protocol recommended here - copper, followed by Prazipro for the recommended time periods. IF during that time, another disease becomes apparent, lets say brooklynella, treat with that per recommendations.

 

[SaltlifeHokie]

I think one of the problems is that you did not follow a protocol - (at least the protocol we recommend here) - I don't know exactly what Humblefish recommends. But you asked the question what was the problem with your quarantine. Besides what @vetteguy53081 mentioned, IMO - when you had used copper (even though at a slightly low dose) - and the fish developed what looked like brooklynella, you did not stop the other medications and then treat for brooklynella (at least not adequately). This is not meant to be 'mean' - but I believe it answers your question. Next time - I would follow the protocol recommended here - copper, followed by Prazipro for the recommended time periods. IF during that time, another disease becomes apparent, lets say brooklynella, treat with that per recommendations.

I appreciate the feedback but still a little confused. So if Brook shows midway through Copper how do you treat that? Some have said I broke protocol by removing them into a new QT to treat for Brook but if I waited the 30 days in copper to the treat for Brook on day 31 wouldn’t he have likely died of Brook?

 

[MnFish1]

I appreciate the feedback but still a little confused. So if Brook shows midway through Copper how do you treat that? Some have said I broke protocol by removing them into a new QT to treat for Brook but if I waited the 30 days in copper to the treat for Brook on day 31 wouldn’t he have likely died of Brook?

Since copper etc is the QT procedure, if another disease that Copper and prazipro does not treat develops - I would stop that QT and treat for the other problem. (Brooklynella - formalin based product) etc etc.

In my opinion the way you 'broke quarantine' - was (unless I'm misunderstanding) - did not treat for the proper duration, etc - for Brooklynella. I don't fault you in any way except to say - once you thought 'brooklynella' - I would have changed course.

PS. There are multiple ways to skin a cat. Various protocols are out there - and Humblefish is very reputable. However, the protocols here are different - which one is right? I guess I trust the one here - and perhaps I'm wrong.

I don't want to confuse you - and I hope you have better luck with your next fish! Hope this helps - if you want further recommendations / comments please ask

 

[vetteguy53081]

I appreciate the feedback but still a little confused. So if Brook shows midway through Copper how do you treat that? Some have said I broke protocol by removing them into a new QT to treat for Brook but if I waited the 30 days in copper to the treat for Brook on day 31 wouldn’t he have likely died of Brook?

to add - stick with copper and you could have safely added Ruby rally

 

[MnFish1]

to add - stick with copper and you could have safely added Ruby rally

Agree. Normally the 'convention' is to use one medication at at time. but I agree with @vetteguy53081- if there Is documentation that you can use another medication with one you're already using - all good. Toxicity with multiple medications can easily develop. In other words - you have a clownfish in QT - and they develop Brooklynella while in copper, based on the recommendations of Ruby Rally Pro - you could add it. I just haven't researched this medication (and my guess is that the company may also not know). My tendency would be to stop copper, and start a formalin based product - but in general I have no problems with Vettguys comment. Like I said above - there are multiple ways to skin a cat

 

[SaltlifeHokie]

to add - stick with copper and you could have safely added Ruby rally

Should I add now for the foxface? He isn’t showing any Brook symptoms. Does Brook affect just the fish or does it stay in the water column and affect other fish later?

 

[MnFish1]

Should I add now for the foxface? He isn’t showing any Brook symptoms. Does Brook affect just the fish or does it stay in the water column and affect other fish later?

I think thats a personal choice. I tend to think the less medicine the better.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Should I add now for the foxface? He isn’t showing any Brook symptoms. Does Brook affect just the fish or does it stay in the water column and affect other fish later?

To be safe- treat system with ruby rally Only which address an array of issues- velvet- brook- bacterial and more- at least 21 days