What will happen when our pets become critically endangered?
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biophilia
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Given current species extinction rates due to a variety of causes, I worry quite a bit that the species we keep in captivity in this hobby will become endangered — though likely not due to export relating to the hobby itself as that seems to be pretty well regulated in my opinion. Species loss across the globe — and especially in the oceans — is looking at upwards of 50% by the end of the century given the current trajectory. At least those are the numbers I’ve seen in the population biology research...
I wonder who they blamed when the ocean rose and separated England from Europe 9000 years ago.
"Throw the virgins into the water so it will go back"
I have a simple question. When has the climate ever not changed?
The tops of mountains that were once seafloor. Desert where forest, Forest where desert.
Did all this magically stop?
Did the residents of Gondwanaland debate if continental drift was a real thing.
"Throw the virgins into the water so it will go back"
I have a simple question. When has the climate ever not changed?
The tops of mountains that were once seafloor. Desert where forest, Forest where desert.
Did all this magically stop?
Did the residents of Gondwanaland debate if continental drift was a real thing.
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biophilia
Well-Known Member
Also, there seems to be R2R staff or moderators in this thread both engaging in discussion concerning climate change and threatening to ban people for engaging in said discussion which is confusing to me. As someone who is interested in this hobby almost entirely because of the anthropogenic impacts on wild reefs and is in the process of applying to graduate programs to study the same, I would find it almost impossible to quantify or discuss the future of species we keep in the hobby in an online ecosystem where the discussion of climate change is in itself considered off-topic. If that is really the case, please let me know so that I can deactivate my account. Thanks!
Also, it really is unfortunate that the discussion has devolved in any way to personal insults which is unnecessary and always the lowest hanging fruit in the absence of well-reasoned argument by the person hurling them... I know that there is a whole field of research looking into perceptions of risk and “belief” on this topic which largely concludes that people on both sides are equally likely to be uninformed on some of the most fundamental concepts — so it’s an issue that unfortunately has become one of largely dogma on both sides.
But the fact that it has been framed as political or some kind of belief system certainly doesn’t mean that the actual empirical evidence behind it is not solid — and framing it in such a way does a huge disservice to the scientific method and the principles of the Enlightenment. Whether or not humans have a measurable effect on ocean ecosystems is a question for science that has real answers that can be known and quantified without having anything to do with politics or political solutions. There are real truths to be known about the world and there are hundreds of thousands of people working on discovering those truths.
At present, the emergent truth is unequivocally that a combination of anthropogenic carbon emissions and habitat loss is wreaking havoc on the earths natural systems and, in turn, populations of the pets we keep in the hobby. It’s not a truth because one group of politicians says it. It’s a truth because that’s what the best available scientific evidence going back a half century says.
Also, it really is unfortunate that the discussion has devolved in any way to personal insults which is unnecessary and always the lowest hanging fruit in the absence of well-reasoned argument by the person hurling them... I know that there is a whole field of research looking into perceptions of risk and “belief” on this topic which largely concludes that people on both sides are equally likely to be uninformed on some of the most fundamental concepts — so it’s an issue that unfortunately has become one of largely dogma on both sides.
But the fact that it has been framed as political or some kind of belief system certainly doesn’t mean that the actual empirical evidence behind it is not solid — and framing it in such a way does a huge disservice to the scientific method and the principles of the Enlightenment. Whether or not humans have a measurable effect on ocean ecosystems is a question for science that has real answers that can be known and quantified without having anything to do with politics or political solutions. There are real truths to be known about the world and there are hundreds of thousands of people working on discovering those truths.
At present, the emergent truth is unequivocally that a combination of anthropogenic carbon emissions and habitat loss is wreaking havoc on the earths natural systems and, in turn, populations of the pets we keep in the hobby. It’s not a truth because one group of politicians says it. It’s a truth because that’s what the best available scientific evidence going back a half century says.
kschweer
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Not true. We are allowing the discussion about whether or not people are worried their pets will become endangered. While climate change is part of this politics and religion are not. If you wish to take part in this discussion you may, however if you can’t keep politics and religion out of it do not take part. Also please familiarize yourself with our terms of service.
https://www.reef2reef.com/help/terms
Specifically this:
“If rules are violated we retain the right at our discretion to remove, edit or delete posts and, if necessary, ban or remove members. Any abuse toward our staff may/will result in immediate suspension of your account. Complaints about moderator decisions may not be made in posts; instead send a private message to a moderator. If a moderator deletes or edits one of your posts and you disagree with the action, contact the moderator concerned. Do not repost deleted material.”
biophilia
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the clarification. My confusion was coming specifically from Brew12’s post in which it was stated that this thread can not discuss the causes or severity of global warming.
kschweer
Moderator
He is correct. This thread is not a discussion about global warming, it’s about if we are worried about our pets becoming endangered. Someone can state that they are worried due to global warming. What we are asking is that this thread be kept on topic and not become a discussion about global warming, it’s causes, it’s severity etc.
@csb123,
Not to many centuries ago "it was a mainstream established fact" that the world was flat and the Sun revolved around
the Earth. The current climate model that most closely resembles our actual climate records is the Russian model yet 30 plus other countries use a model that is way out of line with the actual global data being collected. Things that make you go hmm maybe. According to the other models we should have heated up far beyond the current global trend yet the global trend matches....you got it the Russian model. In any investigation or investment it is important to follow the money. Carbon taxes will not limit carbon footprint but it will make lot's of money for the fear mongers and governments. Just like the current end of coral farming in Fiji and Indonesia. The current result is about 12000 people have lost their jobs and income in Indonesia. Who knows how many in Fiji?
Results may present themselves to late to make any sense to a government our beaurocrate. Just saying history is full of settled ideas that became unsettled by time and actual recorded results. Our government thought cigarette smoking was healthful, slavery, the prohibition, and the National 55mph were great ideas not so long ago. Knowledge is progressive and rarely settled in our short recorded history.
I am only worried the overeach accomplished by supposed experts in the management of fish, inverts, plants, and nature in general. You can't possibly manage an ecosyststem with complex interactions you barely understand. We have Starlings, Quauga Mussles, Canadian Star Thistle, Spotted Owls, Canadian Grey Wolves, and a host of other ideas that are a disaster to our native flora and fauna. All created by experts on their own or funded by the government. Just saying very little is settled science unless you are ready to ignore other possibilities.
Not to many centuries ago "it was a mainstream established fact" that the world was flat and the Sun revolved around
the Earth. The current climate model that most closely resembles our actual climate records is the Russian model yet 30 plus other countries use a model that is way out of line with the actual global data being collected. Things that make you go hmm maybe. According to the other models we should have heated up far beyond the current global trend yet the global trend matches....you got it the Russian model. In any investigation or investment it is important to follow the money. Carbon taxes will not limit carbon footprint but it will make lot's of money for the fear mongers and governments. Just like the current end of coral farming in Fiji and Indonesia. The current result is about 12000 people have lost their jobs and income in Indonesia. Who knows how many in Fiji?
Results may present themselves to late to make any sense to a government our beaurocrate. Just saying history is full of settled ideas that became unsettled by time and actual recorded results. Our government thought cigarette smoking was healthful, slavery, the prohibition, and the National 55mph were great ideas not so long ago. Knowledge is progressive and rarely settled in our short recorded history.
I am only worried the overeach accomplished by supposed experts in the management of fish, inverts, plants, and nature in general. You can't possibly manage an ecosyststem with complex interactions you barely understand. We have Starlings, Quauga Mussles, Canadian Star Thistle, Spotted Owls, Canadian Grey Wolves, and a host of other ideas that are a disaster to our native flora and fauna. All created by experts on their own or funded by the government. Just saying very little is settled science unless you are ready to ignore other possibilities.
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pirate2876
Valuable Member
Hold my beer, brb.
While I agree that collection must be managed. I would also acknowledge that hobbyist / scientist who truly endear our ecosystem have the best chance at preserving what we have.
I do not feel that global warming is the main issue. I believe the main issue is the poisoning of the ocean, through pollution and also the many years of cyanide methods of collection. That is also going back to the pollution Factor.
I do not feel that global warming is the main issue. I believe the main issue is the poisoning of the ocean, through pollution and also the many years of cyanide methods of collection. That is also going back to the pollution Factor.
ca1ore
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Sure, the planet has experienced countless climactic changes, and 99% of the species that ever existed are extinct. Earth will persist .... just without us. The laughable thing about all these debates is that there’s not a single person on these boards, myself included, that actually knows what they are talking about. It has always seemed to me that if there is even a chance that the scientists that study this stuff (and have something called data) are right in their warnings, then it is profound stupidity on the part of the human race to do nothing about it.
I’ve tended to think of global climate change like believing in God. If you believe no evidence is necessary; if you don’t believe, no evidence is enough.
I agree. The ecosystem has rebounded from many different occasions over the millions of years. However, I have to ask the question how long would we like to preserve this cycle. I for one would like to see a counterproductive measure. So that we can continue to enjoy this Hobby in our own lifetime
I don't think it is so much knowing what you are talking about. But it is about what you can learn to help the current situation. We are in an opportunity that has to do with the best you can do type of aspect.
Fritzhamer
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Didn't have a chance to read through the thread (I know, I'm the WORST kind of poster). Anyhow, my son had a sixth grade project last year on endangered species. He chose to go with only coral species as we have a ton of them in our tank. Most of the Euphylias and the Staghorns are classified as endangered species by the US which really blew our minds as just about every hobbyist has some.
Without learning about these species and practicing what helps them thrive, we will not be able to sustain them in the wild. Therefore the hobbyist / scientist plays an important role in understanding what is detrimental to them.
It seems to be a double-edged sword. On one edge of the sword we are taking resources. And on the other edge of the sword we are learning about them in a way that we can learn how to preserve them.
It seems to be a double-edged sword. On one edge of the sword we are taking resources. And on the other edge of the sword we are learning about them in a way that we can learn how to preserve them.
It is not exactly a fair example, but compare zoology and elephants. If we cannot reproduce them and preserve them. Then they could possibly be lost forever. The point is to avoid Extinction.
Preferably to preserve them in their own habitat.
Preferably to preserve them in their own habitat.
ca1ore
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I have teenaged boys. Both are very interested in nature. My youngest has always been fascinated by the Thylocene. Anyone know what that is, without resorting to google? It’s the Tasmanian Tiger, recently gone extinct in the wild and then followed shortly by those in zoos. I find myself wondering when they have children, how many animal species that still exist now will be consigned to video and film. Thus back to the original post in this thread. Maybe home reef aquaria will become the ‘zoo’ for corals extinct in the wild - wouldn’t that be ironic. I’d submit that this hobby is largely self sustaining when it comes to corals. Though captive breeding of fish continues to grow, the hobby is nowhere near self sustaining.
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